C41 Chemistry

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

Hey,

Initially, I thought that I'll develop around 5 rolls per week at home, so I bought C41 Kit with separate bleach and fixer (to refresh the developer later and re-use the same bleach and fixer)

So, fast-forward a week later I've developed around 14 for that week and my developer almost died and I need to buy a newer one.

My initial thought it's to buy raw bulk chemistry and mix it by myself, but now I'm releasing that it could be too much.

Now I'm thinking about buying just FlexiColor LORR developer and starter, but idk if it's worth it since it will be more expensive, and will be quality somehow differ from that raw bulk chemistry?

As pros for raw chemistry - is that I'll they will not go bad and that it will be enough for a few years but idk if I'll still continue shooting film in a year or two.

Does anybody have experience in both, is it worth buying bulk chemistry and mix it or it's too much hassle?

Thanks

LeoniD · Apr 11, 2023

Mixing your own chemistry is much, much cheaper, but it comes with two major drawbacks:
1) One day you will, inevitably, make a mistake while mixing and ruin your roll(s)
2) Making your own chemistry gets old really fast. It doesn't take that long, but I often avoid developing just because it means mixing a new batch of developer

So for modern color processes I switched to kits the moment cheaper ones became available. A bit more expensive (28$ for 48 films), but infinitely more convenient

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
Does anybody have experience in both, is it worth buying bulk chemistry and mix it or it's too much hassle?

Yes, experience with both. It's really hard to beat the quality and consistency of factory-made chemistry. I'd certainly recommend getting some minilab chemistry from a reputable manufacturer, whichever is easily available where you live. For me, that's Fuji, over in the US, it's usually Kodak that's easier to get. Stored properly, it generally lasts quite well.

Also, agree with @LeoniD. He's right on both aspects. I'd also like to add that I never quite got the exact same result with DIY chemistry that I got from Fuji minilab stuff, with the latter appearing to give subtly better results.

Welcome to Photrio btw

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

LeoniD said:
Mixing your own chemistry is much, much cheaper, but it comes with two major drawbacks:
1) One day you will, inevitably, make a mistake while mixing and ruin your roll(s)
2) Making your own chemistry gets old really fast. It doesn't take that long, but I often avoid developing just because it means mixing a new batch of developer

1) - it's okay always there a space to learn)
2) - hmm, but with bulk raw chemistry it isn't an issue I guess, my developer should go bad because of the amount I'll develop, and I always could mix a newer one again.

3) - Слава Україні

koraks said:
Yes, experience with both. It's really hard to beat the quality and consistency of factory-made chemistry. I'd certainly recommend getting some minilab chemistry from a reputable manufacturer, whichever is easily available where you live. For me, that's Fuji, over in the US, it's usually Kodak that's easier to get. Stored properly, it generally lasts quite well.

Also, agree with @LeoniD. He's right on both aspects. I'd also like to add that I never quite got the exact same result with DIY chemistry that I got from Fuji minilab stuff, with the latter appearing to give subtly better results.

Welcome to Photrio btw

It was my first developing experience, and for now, I'm using Flic Film kit, and the results are pretty good, can't complain for that price.

My thought on FlexiColor is that it will take more space in my small apartment to store all these bottles...

and btw I'm developing Vision 3 in C41, so I already going bad with it idk if I'll have any difference between this kit and FlexiColor.

Thanks for your kind words

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
My thought on FlexiColor is that it will take more space in my small apartment to store all these bottles...

That can certainly be a relevant argument!

Here's a formula I used for some time. It tries to balance between convenience, obtainability of chemistry and performance. It's two concentrates that keep well for at least months (probably longer), to which a suitable amount of weighed out CD4 is added when the working solution is mixed.

Stock concentrate A
Water: 700ml
Hydroxylaminesulfate (HAS): 200g
Add water to make 1000ml

Stock concentrate B
Water: 700ml
Potassium carbonate monohydrate: 257g
Potassium hydroxide: 7.14g
Potassium bromide: 10.7g
Sodium sulfite: 25g
Add water to make 1000ml

To make a working solution:
Water: 700ml
Stock A: 10ml
Stock B: 140ml
CD4 (dry powder): 5g
Add water to make 1000ml

All solutions can be scaled to the desired quantities as long as the ratios remain the same.

Adjust pH to 10.00 +/- 0.05 at 20C. pH can be adjusted upwards by adding e.g. some acetic acid (vinegar) or downwards by adding drops of a KOH solution (e.g. 10%).

If you use tap water for the stock concentrates, there will likely be some precipitate especially in concentrate B. It's harmless.

Stock A might be omitted if the developer is used immediately after mixing and one shot. I've not tried this, but I expect the impact on the quality of the negatives is likely minimal/insignificant. The developer will oxidize within a short period of time with no HAS present, so mix right before use and discard after use.

As said, I've used the above chemistry for some time and the difference with lab-developed film and film developed in factory chemistry was minimal.

If you want to tweak/optimize, have a look here: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...lor-developer-formulas-including-c41-and-ra4/
I've collected several formulas on that page, many of which were scrounged off of Photrio (with links to original threads discussing them). You'll notice I cut some corners - in case of doubt, you could paste them back on

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

Oh Wow!

Thank you so much!
I saw your site about a week ago and noted a few recipes, but also I found that one and currently using it

Water (Room Temp)	800.0ml
Potassium Carbonate	32.0g
Sodium Sulfite	3.5g
Potassium Bromide	1.5g
Hydroxylamine Sulfate	2.0g
CD-4	5.0g
Water to make	1.0L

I think that temperature will be more important here than using lab vs raw chemistry, but idk - it just my thoughts, + I have Noritsu scanner and anyway I'm adjusting picture later in post, sooo I just don't think that using FlexiColor will improve the quality a lot, it will add only more problems like storing, replenishing, etc

Anon Ymous · Apr 11, 2023

koraks said:
Adjust pH to 10.00 +/- 0.05 at 20C. pH can be adjusted upwards by adding e.g. some acetic acid (vinegar) or downwards by adding drops of a KOH solution (e.g. 10%).

That should be the other way around.

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

Sorry, brainfart. You're right - pH down = acetic acid, pH up = hydroxide.

Anon Ymous · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
I have Noritsu scanner and anyway I'm adjusting picture later in post, sooo I just don't think that using FlexiColor will improve the quality a lot, it will add only more problems like storing, replenishing, etc

Ah, the miracles of digital processing, gives you so much room for corrections eh? This may be true, but it gets boring pretty quickly. Crossover can be tough to correct, so I'd aim to have a negative as perfect as possible, it will make your life easier.

PS If you can spare a feame and shoot something like a colour checker, by all means do it. It can help correct these problems.

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
but also I found that one and currently using it

That's the Bonavolta formula; it's also in one of the tables on the page I linked to. I've used it, too. Results are pretty close to the other formulas.

thesooth said:
+ I have Noritsu scanner and anyway I'm adjusting picture later in post

That gives you a massive possibility in adjusting whatever goes subtly 'wrong' at the chemical stage

Anon Ymous said:
I'd aim to have a negative as perfect as possible, it will make your life easier.

There's that, too, and I agree. But I can also see there's a balance between optimal results and ease of use. For instance, I've omitted the potassium iodide from my formula although it's used in others, because (1) I noticed little effect leaving it out and (2) it complicates matters quite a bit. You'd have to have a fresh solution of KI around at all times, keeping in mind that KI in solution apparently doesn't keep well / isn't stable.

LeoniD · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
1) - it's okay always there a space to learn)
2) - hmm, but with bulk raw chemistry it isn't an issue I guess, my developer should go bad because of the amount I'll develop, and I always could mix a newer one again.

3) - Слава Україні

It was my first developing experience, and for now, I'm using Flic Film kit, and the results are pretty good, can't complain for that price.

My thought on FlexiColor is that it will take more space in my small apartment to store all these bottles...

and btw I'm developing Vision 3 in C41, so I already going bad with it idk if I'll have any difference between this kit and FlexiColor.

Thanks for your kind words

Героям слава!

Space to learn is good of course, but it's really frustrating when it happens. It may not even be your mistake-scales can fail, for example, and you'll only find out when there's nothing can be done.
There are "real" Kodak's formulas here on Photrio btw, https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c41-formulas.142062

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
Ah, the miracles of digital processing, gives you so much room for corrections eh? This may be true, but it gets boring pretty quickly. Crossover can be tough to correct, so I'd aim to have a negative as perfect as possible, it will make your life easier.

PS If you can spare a feame and shoot something like a colour checker, by all means do it. It can help correct these problems.

ahah, yeah, you absolutely right, of course, if the negative will be off color - there is nothing to do with it

thanks, everyone for your input, for now, I'm probably will stick with Bonavolta formula and will see how it goes, maybe will change for a different one

mshchem · Apr 11, 2023

If you live in NYC, I would try to visit either B&H, or Unique Photo in New Jersey. Buy Flexicolor C-41 RA Bleach and fixer. This is what minilabs use. Bleach and fixer times are much shorter. Flexicolor developer replenisher and starter is cheap, using one shot for developer is a great approach.

Don't create a burden for yourself by accumulating a bunch of chemicals.

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

hm, I thought that RA is for prints,

mshchem said:
Flexicolor developer replenisher and starter is cheap, using one shot for developer is a great approach.

but it needs to be mixed immediately in 5L storage, I don't have a lot of space to store that as I said + bleach and fixer come in concentrate to make 25L, that's a lot, or maybe I'm wrong

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

thesooth said:
I thought that RA is for prints,

RA stands for Rapid Access and is also applied to most of the lab-oriented C41 chemistry being sold these days. Yeah, it's a bit confusing.

mshchem · Apr 11, 2023

20 bucks for 5 liters you need a starter , that's another 22 bucks, the starter will keep for 40 years (or longer)

https://www.uniquephoto.com/c41devrepllorrtm5lekkodakxhazhazsp183206088231672

https://www.uniquephoto.com/kodakc41devstarterlorr12l6601074

C-41RA uses different bleach reduces bleach time from 6'30" to 1 minute. Kodak has it ready to use concentrate, 5 L bottle it's expensive, something like 80 bucks a bottle, but will last FOREVER replenishment rate is something like 10 mL per 36exp. So 500 rolls per 5L, 18,000 exposures, yikes

Fixer is Fixer any C-41 fixer will work. I've used Ilford rapid fixer in a pinch, not recommended by me.

This is the best chemistry I've used, made in China, so it has been unavailable during the last couple years

THIS ONLY MAKES SENSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE PROCESSING A LOT OF FILM

LeoniD · Apr 11, 2023

mshchem said:
20 bucks for 5 liters you need a starter , that's another 22 bucks, the starter will keep for 40 years (or longer)

https://www.uniquephoto.com/c41devrepllorrtm5lekkodakxhazhazsp183206088231672

https://www.uniquephoto.com/kodakc41devstarterlorr12l6601074

C-41RA uses different bleach reduces bleach time from 6'30" to 1 minute. Kodak has it ready to use concentrate, 5 L bottle it's expensive, something like 80 bucks a bottle, but will last FOREVER replenishment rate is something like 10 mL per 36exp. So 500 rolls per 5L, 18,000 exposures, yikes

Fixer is Fixer any C-41 fixer will work. I've used Ilford rapid fixer in a pinch, not recommended by me.

This is the best chemistry I've used, made in China, so it has been unavailable during the last couple years

THIS ONLY MAKES SENSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE PROCESSING A LOT OF FILM

If the different bleach is what I think it is, potassium ferricyanide, then it will produce noticeably higher base fog. Even if you wash properly, just because of how it affects the dyes

koraks · Apr 11, 2023

LeoniD said:
If the different bleach is what I think it is, potassium ferricyanide

It isn't. That hasn't been used in any commercial bleach for many decades.

Anon Ymous · Apr 11, 2023

LeoniD said:
If the different bleach is what I think it is, potassium ferricyanide, then it will produce noticeably higher base fog. Even if you wash properly, just because of how it affects the dyes

Not really, C41 bleach started as EDTA based, rather slow, but has since changed to DTPA and has become much faster.

A ferricyanide bleach can be used IIRC with a stop-clear bath containing acetic acid and sodium sulfite. This should take care of increased base fog.

LeoniD · Apr 11, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
This should take care of increased base fog

No, that's the thing. Even after a very thorough wash, with stop, sulphite, all that, using ferricyanide bleach results in a denser negative

thesooth · Apr 11, 2023

mshchem said:
20 bucks for 5 liters you need a starter , that's another 22 bucks, the starter will keep for 40 years (or longer)

https://www.uniquephoto.com/c41devrepllorrtm5lekkodakxhazhazsp183206088231672

https://www.uniquephoto.com/kodakc41devstarterlorr12l6601074

C-41RA uses different bleach reduces bleach time from 6'30" to 1 minute. Kodak has it ready to use concentrate, 5 L bottle it's expensive, something like 80 bucks a bottle, but will last FOREVER replenishment rate is something like 10 mL per 36exp. So 500 rolls per 5L, 18,000 exposures, yikes

Fixer is Fixer any C-41 fixer will work. I've used Ilford rapid fixer in a pinch, not recommended by me.

This is the best chemistry I've used, made in China, so it has been unavailable during the last couple years

THIS ONLY MAKES SENSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE PROCESSING A LOT OF FILM

if I'll use this developer - do I need to mix it immediately? or I could mix for example 1L, or two, and the rest as needed, or it will go bad pretty soon?

btw, currently I'm using the next fixer:

Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate	200g
Ammonium Chloride	45.0g
Sodium Sulfite	10.0g
Sodium Metabisulfite	2.2g

and bleach:

Potassium Ferricyanide	40g
Sodium Bromide	25g

will be this enough for Flexicolor developer?

thesooth · Apr 12, 2023

So, now idk what to buy again, I thought about FlexiColor, but because it will go bad in 6+ weeks, and I'll process around 20-30 rolls per month, I'm not sure that it is worth it, because in 2-3 months I'll just need to buy a newer developer again and again. of course it costs not so much, but I still not sure that it is worth instead of buying and mixing raw chemicals by myself.

+ because I'm developing ECN-2 in C41 in the end I'll have some remject particles in developer and when I'll need to develop regular C41 - I can easily mix a newer developer.

koraks · Apr 12, 2023

thesooth said:
+ because I'm developing ECN-2 in C41 in the end I'll have some remject particles in developer and when I'll need to develop regular C41 - I can easily mix a newer developer.

I'd really recommend developing the ECN2 film in ECN2 developer. Since you're mixing your own chemistry anyway, it's a tiny step to also mixing a workable ECN2 developer. I was just doing some comparative tests with Vision3 film in ECN2 vs. C41 film and the latter has distinctly more wonky colors (read: crossover) than the former.

thesooth · Apr 13, 2023

Thank you!

Probably it will be my next, for now, I ordered FlexiColor just to try and will see how it will come, I bought 5L wine bag to store the developer.
Just need to way mix all of these 5Ls, right now I have only 1L graduate, I'm thinking about mixing it by 2.5L in just water bottle and then pouring it to wine bag, but not sure if it's a good idea

btw, actually, I like colors that came out in C41 and I have a looot of latitude, so even shooting with at 400 ISO I still have some overexposed areas and can use 11-16F, I shooting street, so for me, it's important to have that room.

sillo · Apr 13, 2023

I mix it straight up in the wine bag. I have a long bartender spoon I just stick in and give each stage a good stir.

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