C41 chemistry--what for developer?

MikeSeb · Jul 1, 2008

I will be doing quite a bit of C41 in a Jobo ATL-1500, but I'm confused about what chemistry to use going forward. I recently bought the separate Kodak Flexicolor chemicals, but now find that the developer solution I bought (Flexicolor Developer, mfr #1927698, three components to make one gallon of working solution) has been discontinued.

I see various "developer/starter" and "developer/replenisher" solutions available, but not certain which ones to buy for this sort of one-shot, unreplenished rotary-tube processing. Kodak's website and instructions for Flexicolor are not crystal clear (!) on this; previous threads here suggest that the "LORR" or "SM" developers are appropriate for a Jobo, but neither Adorama nor Calumet in the US carry them; and B&H won't ship what it does carry.

Any suggestions appreciated.

epatsellis · Jul 1, 2008

Adorama has and will ship nearly all the C41 chemistry, I use the Flexicolor replenisher with starter (not the LORR) as it comes out about the least expensive way to do it.

Developer: Dead Link Removed
Starter: Dead Link Removed

If you recapture your bleach and aerate/regen you can get quite a long life out of it.

erie

MikeSeb · Jul 2, 2008

Erie, I take it that you have to mix the replenisher with the starter to make the working solution? Is this something you'd do for each processing session, or would you mix it all up at once and store as a working solution?

From what I gather, the SM solutions are the recommended ones for small-volume nonreplenished processing, but they're not readily available from any source I've found that would ship.

Looks like B&H will ship a Tetenal C-41 developer; any reason it couldn't be used with Kodak bleach, fix, and stabilizer/rinse? Anyone with any experience with these Tetenal solutions (other than the kits?).

Thanks again everyone.

fotch · Jul 2, 2008

MikeSeb said:
now find that the developer solution I bought (Flexicolor Developer, mfr #1927698, three components to make one gallon of working solution) has been discontinued.

Any suggestions appreciated.

I am also planning to get back into my own color developing so I Googled and found that Camcor.com has it. Called them, its in stock.
Here is the page. http://www.camcor.com/cgi-bin/cat/i...exicolor_Developer_To_Make_1_gal_1927698.html

Jim

PHOTOTONE · Jul 2, 2008

Yes, current Kodak supplied C-41 developer solutions are replenishers that require the addition of a starter to make working developer. All solutions are liquid concentrates, and you could only mix up the amount you would use within a reasonable amount of time. The concentrates will last some time in the bottles. Now Kodak "may" only give you directions to mix up the whole kit, but with a calculator you can "figure" out how to mix up a smaller quantity. Each bottle is listed with the fluid ounces it contains. For example if a bottle contains 16 ounces, and is designed to "make" 3.5 gallons of solution, first you would divide 16 by 3.5 to get the 1 gallon quantity. That would be 4.57 ounces. and so forth. Only want to make 1/2 gallon? divide 4.57 by 1/2. Since all C-41 chemistry is liquid concentrates, you have no problems like with powder chemistry where the various elements of the powder might not be mixed evenly.

epatsellis · Jul 2, 2008

Mike,

Google Z-131 before you go any further, it will asnwer every question you have, and probably some you may haven't thought of yet.. Phototone, Kodak supplies information for mixing 1L solutions in the aforementioned tech bulletin.

erie

srs5694 · Jul 2, 2008

MikeSeb said:
Looks like B&H will ship a Tetenal C-41 developer; any reason it couldn't be used with Kodak bleach, fix, and stabilizer/rinse? Anyone with any experience with these Tetenal solutions (other than the kits?).

I've never used the Tetanal C-41 products, but AFAIK there's no reason you couldn't use their developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer. Currently I'm using a mix-it-yourself C-41 developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer, and the results seem fine. I've also used Paterson's C-41 developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer, again with no obvious problems. (Ask me again in 20 years how my negatives have stood up over time, though....)

epatsellis · Jul 2, 2008

srs5694 said:
I've never used the Tetanal C-41 products, but AFAIK there's no reason you couldn't use their developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer. Currently I'm using a mix-it-yourself C-41 developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer, and the results seem fine. I've also used Paterson's C-41 developer with Kodak's bleach and fixer, again with no obvious problems. (Ask me again in 20 years how my negatives have stood up over time, though....)

But then again, why would you? the two items I had listed cost ~$32 for five gallons of color developer. I doubt the tetenal is any cheaper (and wager it's probably a lot more per gallon) I frequently buy larger quantities of color chemistry, and with moderate usage (around 50 120 rolls or their equivilent a month) have not had any go bad yet. iI use a Wing Lynch Pro6 processor, everything is one shot, except the bleach, which is recovered, aerated and regenerated.

erie

2F/2F · Jul 2, 2008

Yes, the 1 gal. kit is gone, according to every store I have asked.

I have ten of them stockpiled.

With what they have now, you have to buy starter and replenisher. I just figgered out the exact details by looking at the bottles on the shelf at Samy's the other day, but I could not tell you exactly what to buy from memory. I think you mix up a starter stock and a replenisher stock, and mix the two to develop. I will go check again in a few days if you'd like.

epatsellis · Jul 2, 2008

The flexicolor chemistry isn't that expensive, in fact, some say you can also use the color fixer for b&w work as well (it's certainly less expensive). By reusing bleach and buying the 5gal kit of developer, it's qute affordable. There is a 1 gal developer as well, though I've never used it, some swear by it.

erie

MikeSeb · Jul 2, 2008

Thanks everyone. 2F/2F, take a look next time you're in that store and repost what you find--thanks much. Definitely appears the 1 gal developer kits are history. Wish I had also stockpiled some myself!

Jim, I checked that link at camcor.com; unfortunately, the shipping and hazmat charges exceeded, sometimes by nearly double, the price of the product! So that is not practical.

I have no problem mixing up the solutions from starters and replenishers; even Kodak Publication z131--which I'd already downloaded--I find confusing on just what is the most practical solution series for rotary tanks, and on whether mixing replenisher+starter is feasible for this usage. I appreciate the reassurance, Phototone, so this is likely what i'll do in the future.

I really love the Portras in my new (to me) Mamiya 7. Figures I'd get hooked only to find a "fix" is unavailable.

I really appreciate everyone's input.

Richard Harris · Jul 3, 2008

I use Kodak chemicals for C41 and I use the LORR. Great results and cheap to use. I mix for whatever I am developing and use 150ml per film 120 x 12 or 135 x 36.
Mixing needs to be dead accurate so get some pipettes and mix away.

srs5694 · Jul 3, 2008

epatsellis said:
But then again, why would you? the two items I had listed cost ~$32 for five gallons of color developer. I doubt the tetenal is any cheaper (and wager it's probably a lot more per gallon) I frequently buy larger quantities of color chemistry, and with moderate usage (around 50 120 rolls or their equivilent a month) have not had any go bad yet. iI use a Wing Lynch Pro6 processor, everything is one shot, except the bleach, which is recovered, aerated and regenerated.

I can't speak for Mike, to whom I was replying, but your "moderate usage" is well above my own usage levels. At the levels I shoot, I guarantee that most of a 5-gallon batch of developer would go bad before I could use it. Even a gallon would likely see a lot of waste. That raises the cost of the Kodak developer, and at some point the more-expensive-by-the-gallon Tetenal becomes less expensive. The bleach and fixer have longer shelf lives, so using the Kodak product is still cost-effective.

MikeSeb · Jul 3, 2008

srs5694 said:
I can't speak for Mike, to whom I was replying, but your "moderate usage" is well above my own usage levels. At the levels I shoot, I guarantee that most of a 5-gallon batch of developer would go bad before I could use it. Even a gallon would likely see a lot of waste. That raises the cost of the Kodak developer, and at some point the more-expensive-by-the-gallon Tetenal becomes less expensive. The bleach and fixer have longer shelf lives, so using the Kodak product is still cost-effective.

My situation indeed. I'm expecting to shoot perhaps 15-20 rolls/month.

Richard Harris · Jul 3, 2008

Mike, I keep the flexcolor chemicals in the cellar/basement at an even and low temperature. I shield the half opened containers with a shot of argon gas from a diy welding gas can about £15 here in the England. Both the gas cylinder and the chemicals are still fine after much more than twelve months open. I would suggest a single decanting session in to tightly stoppered glass small bottles 250ml ish of the active ingredient (part B I think) if you are using the larger sized supplies. I find the only chemical that is unstable is the colourless component of blixes, they seem to crystalise and go bad whatever I do.

Photo Engineer · Jul 3, 2008

MikeSeb said:
I will be doing quite a bit of C41 in a Jobo ATL-1500, but I'm confused about what chemistry to use going forward. I recently bought the separate Kodak Flexicolor chemicals, but now find that the developer solution I bought (Flexicolor Developer, mfr #1927698, three components to make one gallon of working solution) has been discontinued.

I see various "developer/starter" and "developer/replenisher" solutions available, but not certain which ones to buy for this sort of one-shot, unreplenished rotary-tube processing. Kodak's website and instructions for Flexicolor are not crystal clear (!) on this; previous threads here suggest that the "LORR" or "SM" developers are appropriate for a Jobo, but neither Adorama nor Calumet in the US carry them; and B&H won't ship what it does carry.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Mike;

After a thorough search, my sources say that #192 7698 is still available so something strange is going on here. I'll try to get more information after the holidays.

PE

MikeSeb · Jul 4, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Mike;

After a thorough search, my sources say that #192 7698 is still available so something strange is going on here. I'll try to get more information after the holidays.

PE

Thanks PE!! Have a great Fourth.

mtjade2007 · Jul 4, 2008

PE, what you found may be the remaining stock of it. I spent some time looking into Kodak web site and found that it only shows:

KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Replenisher
KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Replenisher LORR
KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM Tank Developer

You can see this at: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/busi...cts/chemicals/flexicolor1.jhtml?pq-path=12549

Kodak is really shooting at their own foot by eliminating the 1 liter developer package. This is really helping to kill film sales.

About 15 years ago Kodak had Hobby packs. I used them a lot and enjoyed shooting films. But suddenly Kodak pulled them off the shelf. I abandoned photography as a hobby as a result. It was a long period of blank before I returned to the hobby of photography. I returned because of the availability of desktop film scanners. I can still develop films myself using Kodak's liter sized C-41 chemicals. I am shooting more films than ever now. But if Kodak wants to pull the plug again by eliminating the liter sized chemicals they will know many hobbyist will kiss goodbye to the films they use too. I have always felt that Kodak is responsible for the dying film business. They are the one killing it. They are following GM's track. EK has been $25 - $30 before 2008. It has come down to $15 since the beginning of 2008. I anticipate to see it in single digit next.

Photo Engineer · Jul 4, 2008

Please go here: http://kodak.com/global/en/professi.../filmC41main.jhtml?id=0.2.24.14.18.14.5&lc=en

The bottom of the page shows the C41 developer in 1 gallon kits which is actually the # Mike posted in his original post. In fact, I have 3 of them on my darkroom shelf right now.

PE

epatsellis · Jul 4, 2008

srs5694 said:
I can't speak for Mike, to whom I was replying, but your "moderate usage" is well above my own usage levels. At the levels I shoot, I guarantee that most of a 5-gallon batch of developer would go bad before I could use it. Even a gallon would likely see a lot of waste. That raises the cost of the Kodak developer, and at some point the more-expensive-by-the-gallon Tetenal becomes less expensive. The bleach and fixer have longer shelf lives, so using the Kodak product is still cost-effective.

While it seems like alot, it's also spread among my self and another photographer. Nitrogen tank pressurization (the biggest complaint people have about the Wing Lynch Processors) is the key, the tanks are always blanketed with N2, and after running control strips before every run, I've come to the conclusion that regardless of popular discontent with these processors, it works for me. (well worth the $150 I paid for it)

erie

mtjade2007 · Jul 4, 2008

I should have said 1 gallon, instead of 1 liter. I meant 1 gallon in my mind. Sorry about that. I admit I might have jumped into a conclusion too fast. The Z131 publication still lists 1 gallon sized developer for small rotary processors. If Kodak has discontinued it the publication would have also been updated to exclude it. There is really nothing on Kodak web site that specifically says about the discontinuation of that package. I sure hope it is not. I don't believe it will any time soon. I think due to the explosive growing cost for shipment many retailers probably are not restocking chemicals as fast as they used to. That might have been the cause of shortage rather than being discontinued.

In my opinion if small package chemicals are no longer offered by Kodak there will be significantly fewer people shooting films. It has the effect of pushing people away toward digital. Thanks a lot, PE. You are truly the light house of photo chemicals in this forum. I look upon you for directions all the time here.

Photo Engineer · Jul 4, 2008

I do my best. Thanks.

Just remember that the Kodak web site and any information I get may be wrong as well. It seems that this developer can be purchased, but I would think that some companies don't want to buy it in the minimum quantities now required. So that might be the problem and they just say "It isn't available anymore".

So, lets hope Mike and everyone else can find it.

PE

Lopaka · Jul 4, 2008

It should be noted that the Kodak pub Z-131 on the website was last updated 3/03. A recent change may not yet be noted. Since the major sellers of the product - B&H, Adorama, Calumet no longer sell the 1 gal version, if it is not discontinued yet, it will be soon for lack of sufficient volume to support it.

The reference given to Camcor is helpful in one respect:
The cost of 1 gal with shipping to my location is $45.52. The cost of the 5 gal plus starter with shipping from Adorama is $45.90. A bit more than the approx $18 with shipping that I paid for the 1 gal, but I don't have to get much past 1 gal worth to be ahead on the 5 gal version against the model now available. I guess I need to shoot a lot more C-41.

Bob

fotch · Jul 4, 2008

FWIW
I don't know what the keeping qualities of the developer in the sealed from factory state is, however, Camcor told me the Hazmat charge only applies once for up to 12 quantity. So if it keeps a year plus, or if someone else is nearby and can combine an order, buying several bottles lowers the cost quite a bit.

Jim

mtjade2007 · Jul 4, 2008

I just checked a wholesale photo chemical supplier for Southern and Northern California. Found that the Kodak 1 gallon developer #1927698 is still listed on their web site. See this:

http://www.changsphoto.com/inventory/chemical/kodak/kodakchem.php

This really says it is still available. This is a wholeale supplier. If you are close to its warehouse you can buy any quantity small or large and go there to pick up to save shipping cost. They have will call department for local pickup. I think they have every photo chemical Kodak sells. This is an alternative from buying from Adoroma or B&H. They don't mention Hazment charge on their web site.

C41 chemistry--what for developer?

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