C41 and E6 processing in trays and/or SS tanks

hello all,
i am considering trying to process C41 and E6. i would love to have a Jobo, but it is price prohibitive at this time.
i figure that the C41 is more forgiving as far as temp control goes (and scanning correction) and there is a shorter dev. times. can i use my regular B&W SS developing tanks and put them in a tray of temp controlled water to maintain the correct temps. i am thinking of using a fish tank heater to keep the water in the trays up to the desired temp. is this possible for both C41 and E6? anyone try this? any thought would be great.
next, can i process my 4x5 and 8x10 films in a similiar method in trays(one tray inside another similiar to above)? could i use more solution to try and keep the temp loss to a min. for the C41. i think that i should be able to maintain close to the correct temp for 3 min or so that is needed for the dev of C41. any ideas for E6? i am figuring a mask and chemical gloves for sure.
any other DIY methods would be appreciated.

thanks.

eddie

eddie gunks said:

hello all,
i am considering trying to process C41 and E6. i would love to have a Jobo, but it is price prohibitive at this time.
i figure that the C41 is more forgiving as far as temp control goes (and scanning correction) and there is a shorter dev. times. can i use my regular B&W SS developing tanks and put them in a tray of temp controlled water to maintain the correct temps. i am thinking of using a fish tank heater to keep the water in the trays up to the desired temp. is this possible for both C41 and E6? anyone try this? any thought would be great.

Click to expand...

E6 is definitely doable like this - I wrote a quick guide which you may find useful.

If you're using an aquarium/fish-tank heater though, make sure it can reach the right temperatures - for E6 you'll need 38 Celcius; a lot of the aquarium heaters I've seen max out a few degrees short of this.

My setup for C-41 is

1) Picnic cooler. I think mine is about 50 quarts. Bigger wouldn't hurt.

2) Won brothers fish heater. The analog model. I think they make a digital model that you don't want.

3) An aquarium pump

I use Jobo tanks. Partly because I already had them partly because they hold temperture very well. Also much cheaper on the used market.

Unicolor roller base plugged into a Gralab 300. The mid sized Jobo tanks roll very well on top of this.

I use the picnic cooler to hold the chemicals at the right temperture and to preheat the film tank. The analog heater can be adjusted to match the dial numbers or you can adjust it the other way. The dial doesn't go high enough for colour work. So when mine came reading low I left it that way. IIRC 32C on the dial is really 36C. Took a bit of testing to find the spot on the dial that matches the RA-4 and C-41 temps. Once I'd found the temp I used some tape so I know the spot to turn the dial.

With the motorbase I just stick the tank on the motor and let it turn. The plastic tanks easily hold temps for each chemical step. If you're using metal tanks just sit them in the cooler with the lid closed.

A bigger cooler will let you have all your wash water in the cooler. I find with mine I can't get quite enough bottles into the cooler for all the wash water.

thanks guys,
tim, where did you find the chemical bottles (jesssops) any other suggestions for the bottles? anything i should avoid?

nick, do you just p[re heat all your chemicals and bottles in the cooler and then process on the roller base on the table? do you find your temps are good enough using this method for C41?

thakns
eddie

Yup I preheat everything in the cooler. Including the tank. The plastic tank when I tested it held with in about 1degree C after 10+ minutes. When you consider how short each step is that's not a problem. Reality is the 1degree was likely from me opening the tank to measure how far it had dropped. BTW this is with the 2500 type tanks. The smaller 1500 won't fit the roller base.

tim_walls said:

...
If you're using an aquarium/fish-tank heater though, make sure it can reach the right temperatures - for E6 you'll need 38 Celcius; a lot of the aquarium heaters I've seen max out a few degrees short of this.

Click to expand...

I've also tried to find aquarium heater for this purpose, but so far came out blank - all the heaters stop at 30°C, some go as high as 32°C. And it didn't matter how pricey the heater was. I was told, that only very special fish could survive in such a hot watter and therefore the heaters are not made for this purpose...

If you know of a specific make of a heater (that would be available in middle Europe too), I'd be glad to hear of it too...

eddie: Jessops is a high-street photo shop here in the UK (much maligned these days because they mainly sell digital - although I have some sympathy with them, but that's by the by.) There's nothing special about the bottles though - they're just sold as 'Accordion Bottles,' handy because they let you squeeze the air out for a half-full bottle.

Standard chemical bottles from B&H Photo will do you fine; avoid 'Jobo' bottles - there's nothing wrong with them apart from the fact they cost twice as much (worth it if you're using a Jobo processor, in which case the shape of the bottles is right to fit in the holes, but otherwise no need!) Oh, and Jobo bottles fall apart if you put them in the dishwasher .

Colour chemistry doesn't last long when mixed, so only mix as much as you need at a time & size your bottles accordingly.

Jiri - in the UK, Nova Darkroom sell the water heater which I use - it works perfectly well (the numbers on the thermostat are meaningless as far as I can tell, so getting it to 38C was a bit trial & error, but once it's there you're done!) They should ship anywhere in Europe, or be able to point you to a local dealer.

(Afraid they're not much use to anyone in the US, they'll be 230 volt only I think.)

Thanks Tim. In case the numbers are meaningless, I may as well try the heaters available in shops locally. If I go for a heater designed for a 100l aquarium (eg. more powerful), it should heat less water to higher temperature, am I correct? Then I should only choose the right ratio of volume (heater/my equalizing tank)...

I use rubbermaid bottles and some glass bottles.

http://worldpetstore.com/wonpricti25.html

That's my heater. If they haven't changed it inside the dial is a set screw so you can adjust it so it's correct. Nothing stops you from adjusting it so it goes a little higher.

http://www.aquacave.com/detail.aspx?ID=1044

They've got a new fancy one that goes to 40C with a digital read out.

poutnik said:

Thanks Tim. In case the numbers are meaningless, I may as well try the heaters available in shops locally. If I go for a heater designed for a 100l aquarium (eg. more powerful), it should heat less water to higher temperature, am I correct? Then I should only choose the right ratio of volume (heater/my equalizing tank)...

Click to expand...

If the heater you've got is thermostatically controlled, then it won't work like that unfortunately. The heater will cut out at the maximum temperature regardless of the amount of water; the only advantage of getting a more powerful heater will be you can heat the water to the wrong temperature more quickly .

poutnik said:

Thanks Tim. In case the numbers are meaningless, I may as well try the heaters available in shops locally. If I go for a heater designed for a 100l aquarium (eg. more powerful), it should heat less water to higher temperature, am I correct? Then I should only choose the right ratio of volume (heater/my equalizing tank)...

Click to expand...

Look for one you can adjust.

They should have a sensor. A bigger one will work faster but it won't get any higher then the sensor lets it. Bigger will react better.

FWIW, I don't even use a heater. I just open my taps and put water at a bit above 100F into a dishpan. I then let the chemicals sit in that while I load my developing tank. After I do that I have to do some fine-tuning by dumping water from the dishpan and adding more that's colder or (usually) hotter. During this process I do a warm pre-wet of the developing tank. When the thermometer in the developer bottle reaches 100F I start processing. I use the same procedure for both C-41 and E-6. I haven't done any scientific tests of the results, but they're satisfactory to me.

Oh, yes, I forgot about the thermostatic part...

thanks for all the help! this sounds great. i will be processing my own stuff shortly. anyone got any large format ideas?

nick, you are using the 2500 series jobo, how do you agitate it, or do you need to agitate?
cheers
eddie

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/

I've got a couple of those Unicolor motors. The 2551 up to the 2581 will fit on there and spin happily. The smaller 2521 is too short.