C41 and E6 Chemistry Plan... Thoughts?

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

Hi All,

I posted this in another thread, but it didn't seem to garner much interest. Could someone review this and let me know if you agree with my plan or have suggestions before I burn through cash.

Hi All,

After reading tons of information on APUG over the last few days, I have come up with this and would appreciate comments.

I am going to order an Arista E6 Kit from which I will only be using the first developer and the color developer and use my own bleach, fix, and stabilizer.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1181-Arista-Rapid-E-6-Slide-Developing-Kit-1-Pint

I will also get a C-41 kit from which I will only use the developer... again dropping the blix and stabilizer for my own bleach, fix, and stabilizer.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/20411-Arista-C-41-Liquid-Color-Negative-Developing-Kit-1-Quart

Instead of the included Blix I intend to mix up my own Bleach and Fixer solutions. I plan to use this for bleach and fixer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...sing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

I would use the bleach straight and the fixer 1 + 1 with water. This will work with both my C-41 and E-6, right?

Based on PE's suggestion for stabilizer I plan to order Photo Flo 200 and 16oz of Formalin:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464510-Kodak-Photo-Flo-200-16-oz.
https://www.sciencecompany.com/Formaldehyde-Formalin-37-16oz-P16385.aspx

I will dilute the Photo Flo 200 at 200 to 1 as directed then add 10ml of Formalin.

I may also use this stabilizer for my C-41 as it should be safe and may be an extra boost with the Formalin vs the included modern C-41 stabilizer.

So, all that said, here are my planned steps and times at 105F with inversion agitation every 30 seconds in a stainless steel 16 or 32oz Arista tank:

E6:

1.) Pre-wash with filtered water at 105F for 1 minute
2.) First developer - 6.5 minutes
3.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
4.) Color Developer - 4.5 mins
5.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
6.) Bleach solution - 6 minutes
7.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
8.) Fixer solution - 6 minutes
9.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
10.) Stabilizer solution - 2 minutes (room temp water)
11.) Sponge/Squeegee and hang to dry for at least 20 minutes

C41:

1.) Pre-wash with filtered water at 105F for 1 minute
2.) First developer - 3.5 minutes
3.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
4.) Bleach solution - 6 minutes
5.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
6.) Fixer solution - 6 minutes
7.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
8.) Stabilizer solution - 2 minutes (room temp water)
9.) Sponge/Squeegee and hang to dry for at least 20 minutes

Please provide as much feedback as possible. Thanks!

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

Also, as an alternative to the Arista C-41 kit I may order these for about the same money but far more volume:

Developer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...z-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/_/searchString/c-41
and
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/_/searchString/c-41

Bleach:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...ive-film-1-gallon-8566796/_/searchString/c-41
and
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...lor-negative-film-8255549/_/searchString/c-41

Fixer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...olor-negative-film-m-25-l/_/searchString/c-41

Again, do these chemicals look correct and are they correct for both C-41 and E-6? Thanks!

Rudeofus · Mar 23, 2017

These Kodak chems look extremely cheap compared to these small kits, but I'm not sure how much shipping will cost you. If shipping cost is a concern, and you want separate bleach&fixer, then you could make bleach from BLIX as described (there was a url link here which no longer exists). The STAB you suggested would likely work.

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

I hope PE can chime in and confirm that my bleach, fixer and most importantly stabilizer looks good. Thanks for the feedback Rudeofus!

afriman · Mar 23, 2017

This has been discussed in other threads. If I remember correctly, PE's advice was to use E6 bleach and C41 fixer

pukalo · Mar 23, 2017

You are going through a lot of work due to what I assume is fear of using blix. I have used the Tetenal kits for many years now and have had no issues with silver retention or fading. My advice is to give the kit a try, including the use of the blix. If you are worried, blix an extra minute or two for added safety. Blix may not be suitable for commercial lab set ups (replenished systems), but for 1, 2,or 3 shot then dump usage, it works fine. At least with the Tetenal kit. German engineering, they know what they are doing.

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2017

I will comment on the C41 process you give. Do NOT wash after the CD, and the CD time is 3' 15", not the 3' and 30" you give.

If your stabilizer turns pink or your fixer turns pink, increase the wash times. This is true for both processes.

PE

afriman · Mar 23, 2017

pukalo said:
You are going through a lot of work due to what I assume is fear of using blix. I have used the Tetenal kits for many years now and have had no issues with silver retention or fading. My advice is to give the kit a try, including the use of the blix. If you are worried, blix an extra minute or two for added safety. Blix may not be suitable for commercial lab set ups (replenished systems), but for 1, 2,or 3 shot then dump usage, it works fine. At least with the Tetenal kit. German engineering, they know what they are doing.

I haven't had any problems with the Tetenal E6 blix either.

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
I will comment on the C41 process you give. Do NOT wash after the CD, and the CD time is 3' 15", not the 3' and 30" you give.

If your stabilizer turns pink or your fixer turns pink, increase the wash times. This is true for both processes.

PE

Thanks PE! Why no was before the bleach after developer? Would that be the same for my E6 process as well? Will by C41 bleach and fixer solutions be good for E6 as well? I know the stabilizer should be good for both. Thanks!

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2017

Develop, bleach (FeEDTA type only), then onward OR develop, stop, rinse (optional), bleach (FeEDTA type only).

This is true for both processes AFAIK.

PE

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

pukalo said:
You are going through a lot of work due to what I assume is fear of using blix. I have used the Tetenal kits for many years now and have had no issues with silver retention or fading. My advice is to give the kit a try, including the use of the blix. If you are worried, blix an extra minute or two for added safety. Blix may not be suitable for commercial lab set ups (replenished systems), but for 1, 2,or 3 shot then dump usage, it works fine. At least with the Tetenal kit. German engineering, they know what they are doing.

It's true that I'm scared of blix. But, I'm also a bit of a purist who wants the best result possible even at extra cost and time. I'll never be satisfied that I'm doing it at less than the best possible way. That's why I'm also mixing up my own stabilizer as explained and suggested by PE. I want to do everything as best it can be done, not just sufficient. It's also why I shoot film and don't go digital... purist who wants the best result possible, even for family photos.

Heck, I've grown dissatisfied with not only Super 8 but also Super16 for home movies and am moving up to 35mm. Yes... for home movies. . And I scan my Super 8 at 5K.. yes. 5K.

nevintagefilms · Mar 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Develop, bleach (FeEDTA type only), then onward OR develop, stop, rinse (optional), bleach (FeEDTA type only).

This is true for both processes AFAIK.

PE

Ah... so the not wash after developer is because the film will continue to develop during a wash without a stop bath but a jump right to bleach will act as a stop?

mts · Mar 24, 2017

You should include stop baths after the developer. You won't have to worry about transition to bleach causing staining if you use a proper color stop formula, e.g. one that is properly pH balanced and contains sulfite to neutralize residual color dyes. When processing for E6, use separate stops after each developer and DO NOT mix or interchange the two solutions. Stop, bleach, and fixer are multiple use, not one-shot, although they can certainly be discarded if you like. Stabilizer isn't critical and can be used for both E6 and C41, and for B&W for that matter.

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

mts said:
You should include stop baths after the developer. You won't have to worry about transition to bleach causing staining if you use a proper color stop formula, e.g. one that is properly pH balanced and contains sulfite to neutralize residual color dyes. When processing for E6, use separate stops after each developer and DO NOT mix or interchange the two solutions. Stop, bleach, and fixer are multiple use, not one-shot, although they can certainly be discarded if you like. Stabilizer isn't critical and can be used for both E6 and C41, and for B&W for that matter.

Thank you for that advice... do you have a link to a proper stop bath that will work well for both E6 and C41 or one for each?

Also, do you advise that C41 Bleach and Fixer and the same and interchangeable with E6? (I would not intermingle them, just use the same solutions).

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

mts said:
You should include stop baths after the developer. You won't have to worry about transition to bleach causing staining if you use a proper color stop formula, e.g. one that is properly pH balanced and contains sulfite to neutralize residual color dyes. When processing for E6, use separate stops after each developer and DO NOT mix or interchange the two solutions. Stop, bleach, and fixer are multiple use, not one-shot, although they can certainly be discarded if you like. Stabilizer isn't critical and can be used for both E6 and C41, and for B&W for that matter.

So, this stop solution says it's for B&W but it's acetic acid which is what I understand E6 and C41 stop bath should be, yes?

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...-glacial-600005100/_/searchString/acetic acid

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

Ah... there is this too:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/101045-Tetenal-Indicet-Odorless-Indicating-Stop-Bath-1-Liter

That looks better. Is this appropriate for both C41 and E6 I presume?

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

Oh... a kodak version too that despite being described as for B&W it looks like it's fine for E6 and C41, yes?

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464247-Kodak-Indicator-Stop-Bath-16-oz.

afriman · Mar 24, 2017

nevintagefilms said:
So, this stop solution says it's for B&W but it's acetic acid which is what I understand E6 and C41 stop bath should be, yes?

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/fujifilm-acetic-acid-90-solution-1-gallon-glacial-600005100/_/searchString/acetic acid

Yes, but a gallon of glacial acetic acid is a monstrous amount of some rather unpleasant stuff. You only need something like 10-20ml per liter of water. Or you could use white vinegar Just search these forums for "stop bath" - there's plenty of useful information.

afriman · Mar 24, 2017

nevintagefilms said:
Ah... there is this too:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/101045-Tetenal-Indicet-Odorless-Indicating-Stop-Bath-1-Liter

That looks better. Is this appropriate for both C41 and E6 I presume?

nevintagefilms said:
Oh... a kodak version too that despite being described as for B&W it looks like it's fine for E6 and C41, yes?

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464247-Kodak-Indicator-Stop-Bath-16-oz.

Those are much more sensible quantities. And yes, a stop bath designated for b&w use is good for colour too.

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

Hi All,

Thank you all for your very helpful feedback. I am updating everything about this. The following is the C41 and E6 chemicals I will be ordering:

C41:

Developer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...z-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/_/searchString/c-41
and
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/_/searchString/c-41

I will mix these based on the included instructions.

E6:

Developer:

I am going to order an Arista E6 Kit from which I will only be using the first developer and the color developer and use my own bleach, stop bath, fix, and stabilizer.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1181-Arista-Rapid-E-6-Slide-Developing-Kit-1-Pint

(I'm exploring Fuji Chemicals for this instead of an Arista kit to save money and increase chemicals per dollar. But, only large quantities appear to be available. Any advice from anyone on this?)

These chemicals will be used for both the above E6 and C41 processes:

Bleach and Fixer:

Instead of the included Blix I intend to mix up my own Bleach and Fixer solutions. I plan to use this for bleach and fixer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...sing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

I would use the bleach straight and the fixer 1 + 1 with water. This will work with both my C-41 and E-6.

Stop Bath:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464247-Kodak-Indicator-Stop-Bath-16-oz. (Mix according to instructions)

Stabilizer:

Based on PE's suggestion for stabilizer I plan to order Photo Flo 200 and 16oz of Formalin:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464510-Kodak-Photo-Flo-200-16-oz.
https://www.sciencecompany.com/Formaldehyde-Formalin-37-16oz-P16385.aspx

I will dilute the Photo Flo 200 at 200 to 1 as directed then add 10ml of Formalin.

Updated processing times and steps:

E6:

1.) Pre-wash with filtered water at 105F for 1 minute
2.) First developer - 6.5 minutes
3.) Stop Bath - 1 minute
4.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
5.) Color Developer - 4.5 mins
6.) Stop Bath - 1 minute
7.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
8.) Bleach solution - 6 minutes
9.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
10.) Fixer solution - 6 minutes
11.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
12.) Stabilizer solution - 2 minutes (room temp water)
13.) Sponge/Squeegee and hang to dry for at least 20 minutes

C41:

1.) Pre-wash with filtered water at 105F for 1 minute
2.) First developer - 3.25 minutes (3 minutes 15 seconds)
3.) Stop Bath - 1 minute
4.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
5.) Bleach solution - 6 minutes
6.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
7.) Fixer solution - 6 minutes
8.) Wash - flushing water 7 times
9.) Stabilizer solution - 2 minutes (room temp water)
10.) Sponge/Squeegee and hang to dry for at least 20 minutes

Please provide as much feedback as possible. Thanks!

afriman · Mar 24, 2017

nevintagefilms said:
(I'm exploring Fuji Chemicals for this instead of an Arista kit to save money and increase chemicals per dollar. But, only large quantities appear to be available. Any advice from anyone on this?)

Remember, the Arista E6 kit is a three-step process while the Fuji chemicals are 6-step. You can't simply replace Arista color developer with Fuji color developer - you would have to use the Fuji reversal bath as well. And perhaps also the pre-bleach, but I'm not sure.

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

Redfox61 said:
Remember, the Arista E6 kit is a three-step process while the Fuji chemicals are 6-step. You can't simply replace Arista color developer with Fuji color developer - you would have to use the Fuji reversal bath as well. And perhaps the pre-bleach as well, but I'm not sure.

Yes, the kit is like that. However, you can purchase the individual first and color developers and do everything else as I've outlined. The pre-bleach step is part of their solution to eliminate the need for a Formalin stabilizer at the end. By substituting the Formalin at the end and using regular Bleach and Fix we should be able to eliminate all the other steps and chemicals other the the first developer and color developer.

Does anyone have any conflicting facts on this?

MattKing · Mar 24, 2017

Don't use a squeegee or sponge, and 20 minutes to dry isn't long enough.
And for C41, there just isn't any reason not to use the Kodak final rinse.

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

For Fuji E6 you should be able to substitute the first developer and color developer from the Arista kit for:

First Developer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...lenisher-tm-4x10l-600005444/_/searchString/e6

Color/Reversal Developer:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...lacement-tm-2x10l-600005460/_/searchString/e6

Any thoughts?

nevintagefilms · Mar 24, 2017

MattKing said:
Don't use a squeegee or sponge, and 20 minutes to dry isn't long enough.
And for C41, there just isn't any reason not to use the Kodak final rinse.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the feedback.

Why do you suggest not using a squeegee or sponge? What alternative do you suggest? What time do you suggest?

I do have quite a bit of pre-2000 C41 which would need the Formalin mixture and the E6 does need it. So, rather than have two different final rinse solutions, it's just easier to have 1. The formalin mixture can only increase the long term stability of modern C41 and shouldn't hurt.

Thoughts?

C41 and E6 Chemistry Plan... Thoughts?

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