C-41 is blowing my top....

Frank Szabo · Dec 8, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
The process that I posted here for C-41 is

Presoak
Develop
Bleach
Wash
Fix
Wash
Stabilze
Dry

Use of a wash at 100F for C41 after the developer will cause overdevelopment of the cyan layer on the bottom and will thereby lead to some crossover and color balance shifts. It is not recommended by Kodak. A stop is allowed.

PE

I used the three-bath kit from Freestyle for some 8X10 color neg film and the blue shift is exactly what happened - I couldn't figure what caused that.

The directions say to run 6 tankfuls of water thru the tube after the development but since I'm using the soup as one shot, I'll stop this and hopefully get my colors back to snuff.

Thanks PE

Frank Szabo · Dec 8, 2008

MikeSeb said:
Are you using nitrate-base film?

I've used the very C41 kit you refer to--as well as a variety of 3-bath processes--and all of them in a Jobo, and I never had that happen. Never used stop bath either--just filled the three numbered bottles with dev, bleach/blix, fixer, and went to town.

Where's Photo Engineer when you need him? I think he must have a real life unlike us!

Wait...look! Up in the sky over Rochester....it's a bird...it's a plane...it's PHOTO ENGINEEEEEER!!

Oh, PE beat me to the punch!!

Get a large enough pile of that stuff and one could have a bit of fun.

Frank Szabo · Dec 8, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Jack;

What was your stop bath? That might have a bearing on this. After draining, adding a 1% acetic acid stop should not be too bad. It will fizz, but after thinking about it, if it were too strong, or the drain was not sufficient, there would be a lot of fizz.

PE

I believe you had said earlier the fizzies were CO2 bubbles - do these tend to stick to the film and cause problems with the process or is this immaterial after a certain stage?

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2008

By the time development is done, the bubbles should disspate and cause no damage, but that is a guess as I have fortunately not done the above. The reason I say "should cause no damage" is due to the hardness of the film emulsions in color and the fact that bleaches and fixes go to completion.

PE

mtjade2007 · Dec 8, 2008

2F/2F, thanks for offering a trade of old stabilizer for my VPS-III film. I am not exactly sure how much I have in my freezer. I did purchase half a dozen 100' bulk 35 mm from a local photographic supplier (not a retailer) that was about to expire. They have been in the freezer since. I opened one box and shot a few rolls and really loved it. I also remember buying some 120/220 of this film from ebay but don't remember how many rolls. I sure love this film and plan to shoot a lot of them next spring. I am afraid I don't have enough of it to trade. Thanks for offering anyway. I think I will visit a pet store to look for Formalin to make my own stabilizer. Have any one done this before? Any suggestions please?

PE, I will try prewet next time when I process my next C-41 film. It makes sense to do it for its original purpose of tempering the tank, reel and the film before the developer is poured in. I suspect many of my process problems were caused by developer temperature being lowered by not tempering my tank properly. I did program my Jobo ATL processor to temper my tank. But a roll of 220 in the tank is a lot of film. I suspect that it tempered the tank effectively. I have been using a lot more developer quantity per roll to fix the problem. I'll see if prewet will allow me to use less developer thus less waste of the chemical.

bob100684 · Dec 11, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Color developer, in any acidic solution such as stop or bleach forms a pink color that slowly turns brown. A pinch of sulfite will decolorize it. This is a quick test for p-phenylene developers.

PE

Finally I know why the water I use to wash crossover racks every night turns pink! I've been scratching my head on that for a long time seeing as there are no really pink chems in C-41 or at least fuji's CN-16...except for dirty stabilizer

Photo Engineer · Dec 11, 2008

Bob;

If your stabilzer is turning pink, that is bleach carryover. If bleach carries into fix it makes it less stable and if it carries over into the stabilizer it is getting past the wash. If it is left in the film, it can decrease image stability.

You have a minor problem!

PE

wogster · Dec 11, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

If your stabilzer is turning pink, that is bleach carryover. If bleach carries into fix it makes it less stable and if it carries over into the stabilizer it is getting past the wash. If it is left in the film, it can decrease image stability.

You have a minor problem!

PE

I didn't think bleach carryover to stabilizer would be possible, because isn't it bleach, wash, fix, wash, stabilize? I haven't done C41 since before John Turner was Prime Minister, but I would think that if there is bleach in the stabilizer, there is probably fixer in there too, and that would make your C41 even less archival then it normally is......

Photo Engineer · Dec 11, 2008

Paul;

You are correct, but if the stabilizer is turning pink, it must be due to insufficient wash. Ergo, bleach carryover which also implies fix carryover. I have seen it personally! Yep, it happens. In a good process, the stabilzer or final rinse should be colorless and remain colorless as it seasons in!

PE

wogster · Dec 11, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Paul;

You are correct, but if the stabilizer is turning pink, it must be due to insufficient wash. Ergo, bleach carryover which also implies fix carryover. I have seen it personally! Yep, it happens. In a good process, the stabilzer or final rinse should be colorless and remain colorless as it seasons in!

PE

It's not just an insufficient wash, but two insufficient washes, means that the fellow with the pink stabilizer needs to increase the wash times on both washes..... I would say, increase the final wash until the stabilizer doesn't turn pink, then work backwards until the fixer doesn't turn pink.

Photo Engineer · Dec 11, 2008

Some processors or processes do not allow for a wash after the bleach bath. That was the reason for my answers above. So, depending on process it is 1 or 2 washes. I usually see the fix turning slightly pink even after a good wash though. But I sometimes see pink fix and pink stabilzer. I personally use 2 washes.

PE

bob100684 · Dec 12, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

If your stabilzer is turning pink, that is bleach carryover. If bleach carries into fix it makes it less stable and if it carries over into the stabilizer it is getting past the wash. If it is left in the film, it can decrease image stability.

You have a minor problem!

PE

on our fuji minilab, there is no way to adjust the rollers on the crossovers. Control strips are run 4x a day, if within parameter keep processing, if not figure out what is out of whack. Stab is changed at a minimum once a week, more often if it turns pink, though when I was gone from the store this summer, apparently no one touched it, I got back and it looked like coffee.

bob100684 · Dec 12, 2008

fwiw, the fuji CN-16s stabilizer....the concentrate is clear, though on contact with water it turns a VERY pale pink. I didnt realize it was the bleach carrying through the fix, but I did realize that anything darker than that meant trouble.

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2008

Bob;

Your post is unclear. It implies that the fresh stabilzer is pink when diluted with water. Is that true?

PE

bob100684 · Dec 12, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Bob;

Your post is unclear. It implies that the fresh stabilzer is pink when diluted with water. Is that true?

PE

correct! When we mix a new batch of stabilizer, using deionized water it is a VERY pale pink. Its something that's really only noticeable because our mixing jugs are frosted white colored. Appearance wise its something like what you should get for an acid/base titration endpoint.

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2008

This must be something inherent in the Fuji stabilzer or their finall Rinse bath. Neither one should contain colored products unless in the Rinse, the bacteriostat is colored.

This color should not increase then with use. It should stay at a constant level. An increase in color indicates carried over bleach and is not good.

PE

bob100684 · Dec 12, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
This must be something inherent in the Fuji stabilzer or their finall Rinse bath. Neither one should contain colored products unless in the Rinse, the bacteriostat is colored.

This color should not increase then with use. It should stay at a constant level. An increase in color indicates carried over bleach and is not good.

PE

What would you suggest? Replace the rollers on the crossover from the bleach, fixerA and fixerB tanks?

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2008

Clean the rollers and use a good wash between the bleach and fix and the fix and stabilzer is all I can say. I have had this crop up myself when I don't wash well with my Jobo. It is not a roller problem per-se as long as things are kept clean.

PE

bob100684 · Dec 13, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Clean the rollers and use a good wash between the bleach and fix and the fix and stabilzer is all I can say. I have had this crop up myself when I don't wash well with my Jobo. It is not a roller problem per-se as long as things are kept clean.

PE

yeah things are kept clean......very clean. The Only thing I can think of is that the rollers aren't being properly cleaned on nights when I'm not the one closing. There have been days when the crossovers have been in the machine when I come in to open.

C-41 is blowing my top....

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency