C-41 and ECP-2D with only a developer switch?

ajseier · Dec 10, 2013

I normally shoot Ektar 100 in 120, but I do love projecting my 35mm slides.

So I was thinking, when I want to make slides, maybe I can just put my 6x9 negatives in some sort of carrier for my Nikon N90s, and strike the slides I want from the negatives onto 35mm Vision Premier Color Print Film. Along the way I realized how cheap the C-41 chemicals are, and thought that I might be able to run both processes (C-41 and ECP-2D) using the same bleach, fixer, and if necessary for both, "final rinse". I would be mixing my own ECP developer from the Kodak recipe right before I use it: I know it's not too shelf-stable.

Sounds to me like a great setup, at least in theory. I would be able to develop my negatives, look them over, and strike slides from them in the same day (ATL-2 makes it easy).

My question is, can I use the C-41 bleach, fix, and final rinse for ECP-2D?
Also, should there be a stop bath after development in one process, both, or neither?
And if anyone has experience exposing Vision Premier Color Print Film, your exposure settings please. Thanks!

Rudeofus · Dec 10, 2013

A stop bath is recommended for C41 and apparently also ECP-2D. The bleach recipes for ECP-2D include two versions of an Ammonium Ferric PDTA bleach which sounds like what Flexicolor Bleach III for C41 uses. One big difference I see is fixer pH for ECP-2D vs. C41, so in theory a C41 fixer would need some extra Acetic Acid to get its pH down from 6.5 to 5.8, otherwise you risk off colors.

AgX · Dec 10, 2013

Cine print film is intended for cine camera negative film that has lower contrast than still negative film.
So your slides would yield more contrast than a reversal processed slide film or a copy on, now obsolete, still print film.

ajseier · Dec 10, 2013

Rudeofus said:
One big difference I see is fixer pH for ECP-2D vs. C41, so in theory a C41 fixer would need some extra Acetic Acid to get its pH down from 6.5 to 5.8, otherwise you risk off colors.

Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.

AgX said:
Cine print film is intended for cine camera negative film that has lower contrast than still negative film.
So your slides would yield more contrast than a reversal processed slide film or a copy on, now obsolete, still print film.

When you say higher contrast how much higher are we talking? Do you have contrast specs for e.g. Ektar 100 and Kodak 5207?
Because when I look at the sensitometric curves for these two, I'm seeing a Dmax-Dmin of about 2.8 and 2.6 respectively; for about 14 stops of dynamic range each. I could be wrong though.

Athiril · Dec 10, 2013

ajseier said:
Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.

When you say higher contrast how much higher are we talking? Do you have contrast specs for e.g. Ektar 100 and Kodak 5207?
Because when I look at the sensitometric curves for these two, I'm seeing a Dmax-Dmin of about 2.8 and 2.6 respectively; for about 14 stops of dynamic range each. I could be wrong though.

Here is a curve comparison

Rudeofus · Dec 11, 2013

ajseier said:
Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.

You mix up two separate effects that can change colors:

If the three layers are developed at incorrect rates (incorrect pH will do that to you), layer density is not in lock step and colors will be off. Note that because of this even the E6 FD, which technically is a strong b&w developer, can have impact on slide colors.
Dyes change their color hue depending on whether they are protonized or not, and different pH changes the degree of protonization. Indicator dyes are examples where this is particularly pronounced, but I hear that most dyes show this effect. Since fixer is the last bath that has significant concentration (hence buffering), its pH seems to be quite important.

ajseier · Jan 23, 2014

How about pull processing ECP-2 for contrast control? Kodak obviously does not provide guidelines for doing pull processing of ECP, but suggests a 30-second shortening of development for a 1-stop pull of ECN-2. I was thinking I could try the same thing with ECP-2. I realize there would be some crossover, but it sounds relatively minor.

StoneNYC · Jan 23, 2014

ECP confuses me... It's a color negative film that produces a transparency??

ajseier · Jan 23, 2014

StoneNYC said:
ECP confuses me... It's a color negative film that produces a transparency??

Yes, exactly. It's the standard for making cinema prints.

StoneNYC · Jan 23, 2014

ajseier said:
Yes, exactly. It's the standard for making cinema prints.

But it's a negative, so you can't shoot with it right? You have to copy your neg ONTO it and then it's a positive?

Either way it doesn't have an orange mask right? So you could X-process this in E-6 potentially? And not have the orange mask?

frobozz · Jan 23, 2014

StoneNYC said:
But it's a negative, so you can't shoot with it right? You have to copy your neg ONTO it and then it's a positive?

Either way it doesn't have an orange mask right? So you could X-process this in E-6 potentially? And not have the orange mask?

Think of it like the B&W print films you've played with (I think you have?) It's a negative film, so sure you could shoot it in a camera and produce negatives, but it's realllllly really slow film because a contact printing machine for it can use tons of light and so it doesn't need to be fast.

Just like color negative still film has its positive companion (paper) which puts everything back the way it should be again, color negative movie film has its companion (color print film) which puts everything back right again. Printing movie negative film onto RA-4 paper is mismatching things, so you have to find some way to compensate. Printing movie negative film onto movie print film gets everything just right... but then yes, you are left with a transparency, not a print. You talked Kodak into cutting up 5222 into 4x5, maybe you could talk them into coating some movie print film emulsions onto paper - that would be the ultimate easy solution!

Duncan

StoneNYC · Jan 23, 2014

frobozz said:
Think of it like the B&W print films you've played with (I think you have?) It's a negative film, so sure you could shoot it in a camera and produce negatives, but it's realllllly really slow film because a contact printing machine for it can use tons of light and so it doesn't need to be fast.

Just like color negative still film has its positive companion (paper) which puts everything back the way it should be again, color negative movie film has its companion (color print film) which puts everything back right again. Printing movie negative film onto RA-4 paper is mismatching things, so you have to find some way to compensate. Printing movie negative film onto movie print film gets everything just right... but then yes, you are left with a transparency, not a print. You talked Kodak into cutting up 5222 into 4x5, maybe you could talk them into coating some movie print film emulsions onto paper - that would be the ultimate easy solution!

Duncan

Well isn't that just RA4 paper?

Anyway I get it, thanks.

How does one go about converting to ECP-2N ? I have hundreds of feet of ECN-2 film in 500T and 250D and would like to use it, but I prefer to scan transparencies for some reason lol

ajseier · Jan 23, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Well isn't that just RA4 paper?

Anyway I get it, thanks.

How does one go about converting to ECP-2N ? I have hundreds of feet of ECN-2 film in 500T and 250D and would like to use it, but I prefer to scan transparencies for some reason lol

You can develop your ECN-2 films as normal, ECN-2 process. Then just contact print onto Kodak 2383 or 2393 (ECP-2 process) and bingo, transparencies.

frobozz · Jan 23, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Well isn't that just RA4 paper?

No, RA4 paper has an emulsion matched to C-41 negs; we need a paper with an emulsion matched to ECN-2 negs (i.e. ECP-2 film emulsion, coated onto paper instead.)

Someone else already answered how you get transparencies from ECN-2 negs - contact prints!

Duncan

Photo Engineer · Jan 23, 2014

There are so many problems using one developer or one process tail end for both consumer and MP films that it is not even funny. They were just not designed for compatibility. The results may look pleasing but the colors will be subtly off or the dye stability may be off, or the contrast may be off. The list goes one.

Look at the process temperature and the stop baths for hints!

PE

VPooler · Jan 24, 2014

The sulfuric acid stop bath with a pH of 0.85 and the possibility of sulfur dioxide fumes is unsettling. But doable.

Regarding contact prints: this is not your any slap two strips together and let some light through operation. Read the technical bulletins and see how many variables are in that process.

In my opinion, you could do ECN2 in C41 with only a developer switch and you would get better images than with running it through C41 developer BUT I reckon the images won't print that well DIRECTLY but many of us don't do direct RA4 prints anyhow, so scanning, post processing to adjust for contrast and color and then printing is more than okay since negatives have a lot of "play" anyway, minor color shifts and casts are not an issue.
But ECP2 results a positive image on a rather contrasty film, the process itself is finicky enough, so everything must be spot-on to get the transparencies you hoped to achieve. Can it be done? Yes. Is it reasonable? Hell no. But I won't diss you, it is a fascinating world but think everything well through before you jump to this process.
Having worked as a movie theater projectionist before and after the switch to digital (we actually were the first theater to have both 35mm and digital capability in all of our screens in the region and we screened from both mediums side-by-side for several years before the 35mm prints stopped rolling in) I can tell you that a proper, well-done ECP print looks absolutely stellar. The blacks are rich, whites clear and everything is just right. But you need the proper workflow to achieve this.

Truzi · Jan 24, 2014

Then there is the question of whether ECP is as "archival" as E-6.

ajseier · Jan 24, 2014

I was thinking about that, and thought I might use the "Color Asset Protection Film". According to the Kodak docs, it looks to be as good or better than E6 for archival purposes: cold dark storage up to a century!

frobozz · Jan 24, 2014

ajseier said:
I was thinking about that, and thought I might use the "Color Asset Protection Film". According to the Kodak docs, it looks to be as good or better than E6 for archival purposes: cold dark storage up to a century!

One caveat there - it's intended for protecting digital assets not camera negative ones...

From data sheet at http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...t_Production/Archival_Films/2332_SS_FINAL.pdf

Exposure
This film is designed for recorders only if printed or projected the results will be less than desirable. A unique recorder calibration is recommended for optimal exposure. The film is finished with BH perforations for optimal transport in film recorders.

Duncan

Photo Engineer · Jan 24, 2014

Truzi said:
Then there is the question of whether ECP is as "archival" as E-6.

Since no R&D has been done on E6 films for years, the current MP products are far more stable!

EDIT: There is no guarantee on the stability of any MP film processed in the C41 developer (or tail end) though.

PE

ajseier · Jan 24, 2014

Duncan, good point. Vision Premier it is...

PE, no worries about developing. After reading your warnings on various threads, I wouldn't even think about processing an MP film in C41.

-Andrew

StoneNYC · Jan 24, 2014

Ok so, is there a machine that easily contact prints a whole roll for you at proper exposure that is usable for home? I'm curious shoot doing this

ajseier · Jan 24, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Ok so, is there a machine that easily contact prints a whole roll for you at proper exposure that is usable for home?

You could use a contact printing frame for 35mm strips: just cut the 2383 to the same length as your strips, put both strips together in the sleeve, put it under an enlarger, and expose.

Or, you could do what I plan to do: load the print film into a 35mm cartridge and use a 35mm SLR with the Nikon PB-5/PS-5 slide copier, or another slide copier setup.

There would need to be some experimentation for proper exposure and color balance (dichro head required).

As mentioned earlier, there would be a contrast mismatch if you're doing this from regular C-41 process still film. ECN-2 film would be perfect as is.
Theoretically, the contrast of the slides could be controlled with a pull process. Anyone know for sure?

-Andrew

frobozz · Jan 24, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Ok so, is there a machine that easily contact prints a whole roll for you at proper exposure that is usable for home? I'm curious shoot doing this

Here's one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Howell...ct-Film-Printer-HS-Reader-Clean-/251213501849

I'm guessing a whole bunch more of those will be hitting the scrapyards here soon...

Duncan

StoneNYC · Jan 24, 2014

frobozz said:
Here's one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Howell...ct-Film-Printer-HS-Reader-Clean-/251213501849

I'm guessing a whole bunch more of those will be hitting the scrapyards here soon...

Duncan

That's a stupid price... I doubt that would sell for more than a few hundred these days...

But now I understand. Thanks.

C-41 and ECP-2D with only a developer switch?

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