C-22 recipe?

Athiril · Jul 11, 2013

Anyone have this on hand? Not turning up much in google.

Have a roll of Kodacolor-X I'd like to process by hand.

edit:
Strangely enough I just found one on ehow of all places
http://www.ehow.com/how_4673066_develop-film.html

The only thing I don't have on hand atm is benzyl alcohol. That is supposed to amplify the dye image right? So I'm guessing underdeveloped without that.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 11, 2013

In C-22 process emulsions the color couplers are contained in resin beads in the emulsion. This prevents them from migrating. The benzyl alcohol acts as a solvent for the developing agent to enter the beads. The resin beads cause the distinctive milky appearance of these films during development. Benzyl alcohol is only sparingly soluble in water making the developer a pain to mix.

spoolman · Jul 12, 2013

I read somewhere you can process the film as a black and white but don't run it through the fix. Mix the bleach and fix up for the C-22 process and finish processing the film that way. The website that had this tip on it has gone away and I haven't tried it myself but it might be better than mixing solutions that will just sit and go bad. Or you can process it as a B&W neg and scan and remove the orange mask digitally.

Doug

newcan1 · Jul 14, 2013

I have a C22 recipe, I can dig it out tomorrow when I'm at my building. It's an unofficial recipe from the long since defunct Rayco Chemical in England.

nworth · Jul 16, 2013

The process shown in your reference should work fine. Benzyl alcohol is available from Photographers' Formulary and other sources, but it is pretty expensive. It is also necessary for C-22. For reference, here is the official Kodak formula for the developer:

C-22 developer
This is quoted in the reference as the official Kodak formula for C-22 developer.
Water 800 ml
Benzyl alcohol 5 ml
Foamex 0.01ml (anti-foam agent)
Calgon 2.5 g (sodium hexametaphosphate)
Sodium sulfite 1.85g
Sodium bromide 1.4 g
Potassium iodide 0.5 mg (500 micrograms)
Borax (decahydrate) 58.8 g
Sodium hydroxide 12.5 g
CD-3 5 g
Water to make 1 l
pH at 75F = 10.7
Develop the old Kodacolor (C-22 process) about 13 minutes at 75F.
Ref: Dignan Photographic Newsletter, January 1974

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2013

The development time is 14 minutes at 75F.

All Kodak color products use oil dispersed couplers. In C22, the CD3 was less active and the couplers were older versions. In C41, the CD4 is much more reactive and the couplers are as well. No BZA is needed in either C41 or RA4 due to the coupler activity.

Benzyl Alcohol increases image spread and reduces sharpness. That is one reason why it has been removed from C41.

PE

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

For what it's worth I've also seen (but not tried myself) good results from someone who processed it in C-41 but presoak 3 minutes then C-41 dev at B&W temperatures, for 20 minutes. The images I saw seemed really good. I haven't tried this...

I have done B&W though, that's easy, stand develop in Rodinal 1:100 for one hour. Stop and fix as normal.

EDIT: for B&W processing the film should be shot roughly EI -2 so if its 100ASA film assume you should shoot it at 25ASA. Etc.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Rudeofus · Jul 17, 2013

StoneNYC said:
For what it's worth I've also seen (but not tried myself) good results from someone who processed it in C-41 but presoak 3 minutes then C-41 dev at B&W temperatures, for 20 minutes. The images I saw seemed really good. I haven't tried this...

And let me guess: these negs were scanned, not enlarged optically, yes ?

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

Rudeofus said:
And let me guess: these negs were scanned, not enlarged optically, yes ?

The B&W yes, the strange C-41 variant, I can't recall.. Sorry.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Rudeofus · Jul 17, 2013

StoneNYC said:
The B&W yes, the strange C-41 variant, I can't recall.. Sorry.

If you develop these negs as b&w negs, color crossover is hardly an issue. If you do the full C41 process, you need to balance three color layers in lock step, which, according to those who tested this with control strips, can only be done at 38°C/100°F but not at room temperature. If you go the hybrid route, digital post processing software can restore the correct colors and often does it automatically, so you'll never notice that your C41 negs weren't developed correctly. You will notice it, though, once you try to enlarge optically, since you can't adjust contrast of individual color layers that way.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

Rudeofus said:
If you develop these negs as b&w negs, color crossover is hardly an issue. If you do the full C41 process, you need to balance three color layers in lock step, which, according to those who tested this with control strips, can only be done at 38°C/100°F but not at room temperature. If you go the hybrid route, digital post processing software can restore the correct colors and often does it automatically, so you'll never notice that your C41 negs weren't developed correctly. You will notice it, though, once you try to enlarge optically, since you can't adjust contrast of individual color layers that way.

I see, I don't know the method he used. I assume it was a scan, the reds were really great and browns true, the scenes were of a sandy beach and a red boat or tractor or something.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

wblynch · Jul 17, 2013

Most all color film prints come from scans these days.

Given the choice of developing a found roll of C-22 in black and white or cold C-41 I would choose the method that can produce color prints.

I would see no reason to shoot an unused roll of C-22 besides just curiosity.

cmacd123 · Aug 27, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
All Kodak color products use oil dispersed couplers. In C22, the CD3 was less active and the couplers were older versions. In C41, the CD4 is much more reactive and the couplers are as well. No BZA is needed in either C41 or RA4 due to the coupler activity.

Benzyl Alcohol increases image spread and reduces sharpness.

So assuming one has a roll of Kodacolor-X found in an old camera. and assuming that said crazy person only has access to the Jobo/Unicolor dry chemical C-41 Kit. (as you can't mail liquid developer it seems) BUT DOES have some old Benzyl alcohol. Would a reasonable approach be to add 5ml per liter of BZA to the Unicolor Colour developer. (I would be using a Jobo Rotary Processor so I a actually wasting about 4 oz per roll of each chemical assuming nothing useable comes out.) Then Using the Old C-22 Times at 75 Degrees F.

My alternative would be to try and mix some variant of the C-22 Formula, but I only have some old CD-4 and again I don't know where I could get some CD-3 sent to me because of the cross border chemical mail problem. To do that I would need to know a conversion factor between CD-3 and CD-4.

{background, Many years ago I used a formula from a fellow named Dale Nevile That used CD-4 to develop both C-41 and ECN-2 Film. THEN saving the once used developer, it was mixed with a small amount of BZA and diluted with equal parts Water. The Bilx from his formula was also diluted 50-50 and low and behold, used to develop EP-2 colour paper. ANd yes I do have one print on Agfa EP-2 paper displayed in my front hall where it gets a lot of light and it has not faded too much in 20 years.}

{If I can find his newsletter I think he had a formula or c-22, but all his formulsa were based on measuring stuff with a specific set of measuring spoons. and I think my set is no longer complete. so I would want to avoid that third alternative if I can.}

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2013

What you propose might be possible, but the dye hues and image stability would be off and you would likely get crossover.

PE

Rudeofus · Aug 28, 2013

cmacd123 said:
My alternative would be to try and mix some variant of the C-22 Formula, but I only have some old CD-4 and again I don't know where I could get some CD-3 sent to me because of the cross border chemical mail problem. To do that I would need to know a conversion factor between CD-3 and CD-4.

There is a reasonable chance you can get RA4 chemistry, and its color developer is a CD-3 based developer which you can modify to your needs. If you get one of these home RA4 kits, they even have one part which is mostly CD-3 ...

CatLABS · Aug 28, 2013

cmacd123 said:
So assuming one has a roll of Kodacolor-X found in an old camera. and assuming that said crazy person only has access to the Jobo/Unicolor dry chemical C-41 Kit. (as you can't mail liquid developer it seems) BUT DOES have some old Benzyl alcohol. Would a reasonable approach be to add 5ml per liter of BZA to the Unicolor Colour developer. (I would be using a Jobo Rotary Processor so I a actually wasting about 4 oz per roll of each chemical assuming nothing useable comes out.) Then Using the Old C-22 Times at 75 Degrees F.

Who says you cannot mail liquid developers?

We are working on the release of this kit http://www.catlabs.info/product/catlabs-c-41-3-bath-chemistry-kit-5l-10l which can be mailed to anywhere in the US, and later will also be available for international shipping.

But like WBLYNCH said above - why not just shoot fresh color film and help film makers stick around a little bit longer...?

cmacd123 · Aug 28, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
What you propose might be possible, but the dye hues and image stability would be off and you would likely get crossover.

PE

which proposal? The BZA in the unicolor C-41 Kit or something whipped up with CD-4?

Any roll that says Kodacolor-X has got to have mixed up colour by now.

Photo Engineer · Aug 28, 2013

The use of C41 developer for C22 films can work, but will suffer from a lot of problems, not to mention the keeping problems associated with expired film.

PE

cmacd123 · Aug 29, 2013

CatLABS said:
Who says you cannot mail liquid developers?
We are working on the release of this kit....., and later will also be available for international shipping.

Please let me know when "Later" comes.

CatLABS said:
why not just shoot fresh color film and help film makers

The question was in connection with a roll of film found in a camera. I would not think of actually USING a roll of C-22 film these days. In this case there is a roll of Kodacolor-X 127 that I found with a camera, and my moderate level of curiosity makes me wonder if there is any recoverable information. If I get the 50 foot roll or 2 of 46mm HP5+ I ordered from the ILFORD ULF run, the spool and backing paper of the Kodacolor-x will be of interest to me - so if I am having to decide if I can and will run a low cost experiment on the film I found.

cmacd123 · Aug 29, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
The use of C41 developer for C22 films can work, but will suffer from a lot of problems,

So you are suggesting straight C-41 developer then - Without the BZA?

C-22 recipe?

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