Bye bye Pentax?

[david b]

Any confirmation of this?

http://www.photoscala.com/node/view/1260

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Based on a Google Translate of the original German press release, it seems that some EU law on hazardous material is affecting them (use of lead soldering). Does that mean that ALL Pentax branches are affected? Who knows.

 

[David H. Bebbington]

The full article:
http://www.pentax.de/_de/photo/news/index.php?photo&news&gruppe=&news_id=151
says that the basis for the discontinuation is that the products in question contain lead-based solder but says nothing about replacements.

The press release is phrased strangely, it says the changes affect "mainly Pentax 67 and then chiefly unusual focal lengths" but then goes on to list a 67II body without finder, which is of course the heart of the system.

 

[Ole]

That list on the bottom there are the items which will be discontinued (but still serviced). Some of them must be discontinued for othrt reasons, though - I can't see what "dangeous substances" they could possibly put in a 49mm reversal ring?

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

The use of Lead (Pb) in electronic products is of increasing environmental concern; the European Union has established a phase-out date (July 1, 2006) for Lead (Pb) in electronic products with some exceptions.

Some Legislative Activities

• European Union — RoHS: restricts use of Pb, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium and certain halogenated flame retardants (PBB and PBDE) by July 2006.
• United States — EPA reduced reporting threshold for Pb-containing items; January 2001.
• Japan — Recycling Law increased fees for recycling Pb-containing items; April 2001.


RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) Definition

• Mercury(Hg) <1000 ppm
• Hexavalent Chromium(Cr+6) <1000 ppm
• Cadmium(Cd)<100ppm
• PBB <1000 ppm
• PBDE <1000 ppm
Notes:
• RoHS 6 or RoHS 6/6 compliance is complying with the restriction of all 6 RoHS listed substances, without taking any exemptions.
• RoHS 5 or RoHS 5/6 compliance refers to RoHS compliance and taking Pb exemptions. In other words, RoHS 5 compliant parts contain Pb >1000ppm, but meet the concentration limits for Hg, Cr+6, Cd, PBB and PBDE.

Maybe Pentax is eliminating Chrome and Cadmium plating for RoHS reasons???

Note: The switch from Pb solders to Pb-free solders has caused some electronic equipment reliability problems and has also resulted in some increases in manufacturing costs.

 

[JohnArs]

If you go further on the first link you find a statemant for digital MF cameras will be released at Photokina in Köln!
So no Pentax Apuger cameras in MF anymore!

 

[battra92]

So lead solder is no longer legal? Will they just use tin now? I never got how lead in electronics was that much of a danger, I mean has anyone ever gotten lead poisoning from a camera?

 

[srs5694]

I can't speak to the EU regulations specifically, but the general concern over hazardous substances in electronics isn't so much in their poisoning their users, but in what happens during manufacture and especially after the products' useful lives. Many products end up getting chucked into landfills or just dumped in fields, where any poisons they contain eventually leach out and wind up in water supplies. Some items go to incinerators, where the poisons must be dealt with by environmental control systems, raising the cost of this disposal method. With recycling on the rise, these problems become less of a concern, but the way electronics recycling happens today, products are usually shipped off to third-world countries where poorly paid employees with inadequate protection spend long hours in direct contact with these items' innards, and they often end up getting sick because of it.

Of course, there are ways to deal with some of these problems, such as environmental regulations at factories where the products are made (to prevent problems there), better design of landfills to prevent leaching of toxins, and more health-conscious recycling practices. Leaching from products that get disposed of improperly, though, can't be addressed in any meaningful way -- litter, although it may be illegal, is one of those things that seems to be hard to eliminate.

 

[Donald Qualls]

So lead solder is no longer legal? Will they just use tin now? I never got how lead in electronics was that much of a danger, I mean has anyone ever gotten lead poisoning from a camera?

The concern is after market, even post-consumer. Lead (in TV tubes, solder, batteries, and other things) winds up in incinerators and landfills, despite the most zealous recycling efforts, and from there will inevitably contaminate the ground water and the soil (and the air, if burnt). Given recent discoveries concerning how even very low levels of lead affects childhood development, it's rapidly becoming the case that acceptable lead levels are extremely small, and keeping lead out of products is the most effective way to keep it out of garbage.

Replacement solders are mostly tin/bismuth alloys, which can be made to melt in the same range as common 50/50 and 60/40 tin/lead solders (but cost 2-3 times as much). Pure tin works for plumbing, but has too high a melting point for electronics. The problems with reliability are due to bismuth wetting the base metal less well than lead does, with accompanying requirement for reformulation of fluxes that, with traditional solders, had a century of history behind them (for electronics -- much longer for plumbing and structural soldering).

 

[Loose Gravel]

The other problem with tin solder is that it can grow whiskers and short out connections in the small dimensions of electronics. Last I knew, this bug was not entirely understood. High reliability electronics still go with the lead.

Hard to see how cameras are a big threat to the environment. I know I don't throw many of them away. It would be bad to lose Pentax, but I guess there are plenty of used ones out there to keep me happy.

 

[serhan74us]

As pointed out in this thread, the German document essentially states that Pentax MF is to be discontinued. This sad. While I am all for environmental protection, this smells of zealotry. I certainly support the ban of TEL (tetraethyl lead) and the likes (although "alternatives" like benzene and toluene are not particularly better), contending that cameras are a grave public health concern is taking it too far. Presently-it seems to me-that McDonalds is a greater threat to public health than Pentax could ever be.

 

[Aggie]

Ok a female question here.... what are the components they are soldering made from? Why not switch to silver solder? I know it is twice the temp of lead solder to do this, but if it is metal to metal why not the silver? It has a better adhesion than tin, and for the amount you would need it is not that expensive. We are talking cents more in the costs of soldering a camera verses dollars more expense.

 

[clogz]

Lead, solder, 13-year-old EU laws....I think it is just pretense used by Pentax to jump the analogue ship.

My 2 Euro cents

Hans

 

[JBrunner]

I find it hard to believe that there are more hazardous materials in a largely mechanical camera, than a purely electronic one, and that the basic construction of the electronics in an "analog camera" would be essentially shared with its digi counterpart (metering, etc.) Most of this makes no sense when you compare it to the hazardous material inherently encountered in the disposal of any digi device like a digicam, or computer.
There is something more here.

 

[ras351]

Ok a female question here.... what are the components they are soldering made from? Why not switch to silver solder? I know it is twice the temp of lead solder to do this, but if it is metal to metal why not the silver? It has a better adhesion than tin, and for the amount you would need it is not that expensive. We are talking cents more in the costs of soldering a camera verses dollars more expense.

Someone with more knowledge can probably answer this better as I'm dredging up 15 year old forgotten VLSI design stuff but the components are the usual silicon chips (silicon, plastic/ceramic, copper, doping agents) and PCB's (resin, glass fibre, copper, tin etc). Heat is a killer for ICs and although it is a metal/metal joint which is being soldered the heat conducts into the chip and board itself which can cause the silicon and doped junctions to deteriorate. Most IC datasheets for example specify a maximum temperature and maximum time for soldering which is quite low for surface mount components which are less able to conduct the heat away from the point of contact than their larger counterparts. The extra temperature required for silver soldering may either melt the PCB or decrease the amount of time available for soldering below that needed to obtain a successful joint. Also the flux required for silver solder may be corrosive to certain components and may be difficult to remove. This is not to suggest that it may not be an option.

Roger.

 

[Aggie]

Someone with more knowledge can probably answer this better as I'm dredging up 15 year old forgotten VLSI design stuff but the components are the usual silicon chips (silicon, plastic/ceramic, copper, doping agents) and PCB's (resin, glass fibre, copper, tin etc). Heat is a killer for ICs and although it is a metal/metal joint which is being soldered the heat conducts into the chip and board itself which can cause the silicon and doped junctions to deteriorate. Most IC datasheets for example specify a maximum temperature and maximum time for soldering which is quite low for surface mount components which are less able to conduct the heat away from the point of contact than their larger counterparts. The extra temperature required for silver soldering may either melt the PCB or decrease the amount of time available for soldering below that needed to obtain a successful joint. Also the flux required for silver solder may be corrosive to certain components and may be difficult to remove. This is not to suggest that it may not be an option.

Roger.

Thwey do make fusion welders that are electric based. Low temp. and also no flux needed. It is a spot weld type of machine. It is used in high production environments like to put the posts on earrings. You can do this with pearls attached, so it might be a viable alternative. Like some have said, there is something more to this than is being said.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Someone with more knowledge can probably answer this better as I'm dredging up 15 year old forgotten VLSI design stuff but the components are the usual silicon chips (silicon, plastic/ceramic, copper, doping agents) and PCB's (resin, glass fibre, copper, tin etc). Heat is a killer for ICs and although it is a metal/metal joint which is being soldered the heat conducts into the chip and board itself which can cause the silicon and doped junctions to deteriorate. Most IC datasheets for example specify a maximum temperature and maximum time for soldering which is quite low for surface mount components which are less able to conduct the heat away from the point of contact than their larger counterparts. The extra temperature required for silver soldering may either melt the PCB or decrease the amount of time available for soldering below that needed to obtain a successful joint. Also the flux required for silver solder may be corrosive to certain components and may be difficult to remove. This is not to suggest that it may not be an option.

Roger.

The dopants you mention include arsenic, selenium, lead, and mercury. So, a digital device is often far more 'toxic' than an analog device just by reason of having so many chips present.

In fact, there are known cases of toxic runoff from dumps and landfills due to the large number of 'obsolete' digital devices present.

PE

 

[Petzi]

The full article:
http://www.pentax.de/_de/photo/news/index.php?photo&news&gruppe=&news_id=151
says that the basis for the discontinuation is that the products in question contain lead-based solder but says nothing about replacements.

It says that lead-based solders are one (!) reason for discontinuation. In the case of the big lenses and the prism finder, I guess that the glass may contain lead. Some of these lenses must be very slow selling items, so there might not be plan for a replacement due to lack of commercial viability. I would assume that the 400, 500 and 800mm lenses for the 6x7 camera are so special that there is only a production run once every couple years. Redesigning these lenses might be prohibitive. We'll see.

Let us hope we won't get to the point where the sale of used equipment becomes restricted by law.

 

[sanderx1]

Its by and far a pretext - or rather, the regulations would require them to make a small change to what they do or instead discontinue selling the products in at the very least the affected areas (EU). Except they say they will simple stop making the affected products in June 2006 ....

Oddly, no 645 lens are listed - must be related to the d*gital part of that article...

 

[Mark Layne]

I remember the time a woman fled in terror from a party because we brought a fruit salad in a Waterford crystal bowl
Mark

 

[ras351]

Thwey do make fusion welders that are electric based. Low temp. and also no flux needed. It is a spot weld type of machine. It is used in high production environments like to put the posts on earrings. You can do this with pearls attached, so it might be a viable alternative. Like some have said, there is something more to this than is being said.

Hi Aggie,

Electric welders need to conduct quite a few amps between the two parts to be welded which I'm not sure can be reasonably done between IC legs and PCB pads/tracks. There may also be an issue related to applying the voltage to the IC. There may indeed be something more to it although Nikon's FM10 is unavailable in the EU allegedly due to the same environmental laws. Pentax may do the same and the cameras and lenses may still be available elsewhere - the article in question only mentions Pentax Germany.

Roger.

 

[battra92]

You know, that kid who got the signatures on banning water really did show how over-zealous people can get with this stuff. I get some of the landfill part but can't they just refuse them at landfills?

Rome might have fallen due to some lead tablewear. Perhaps our cameras and electronics will bring down civilization again. (tongue in cheek joke there)

Of course people forget that you can get silver poisoning as well. I know I for one will never eat with silverplated flatware. Of course when you sell the sterling stuff, the plate just looks cheesy anyway.

 

[Woolliscroft]

Rome might have fallen due to some lead tablewear.

But, in fact didn't, sorry distinctly off topic.

As a 67II user, I'd be very sorry to see it discontinued.

David.

 

[alien]

Oh boy, me as a 67 user too!!

More news to make my day....

 

[benjiboy]

I don't believe their stated reasons, if they thought there was still a profitable future market for the 6x7 cameras they would be turning them out like there was no tomorrow, if this product is creating such an environmental hazard, why aren't they been taken from us, and impounded by the powers that be ?.