Buying out of date paper

[Jim Chinn]

I always see out dated paper for sale on Ebay going for as little as $30-$50 for 250 sheets of 8x10. I know printing paper degrades over time and most of the paper sold is 4-5 years past expiration. I don't plan to use it for prints but a 250 sheet box for $50 would make a lot inexpensive contact sheets and provide some processing experience for my kids.

So a few questions for anyone in the know.

Would that paper be useable for contact sheets?

Is there a difference in the amount of degradation between RC and fiber, RC being my preferred paper for contacts.

Is there a difference between the different manufacturers with regards to degradation? The majority of the paper sold is either Kodak or Ilford.

What is the time after expiration that paper is pretty much useless.? I know there is going to be big variations due to how the paper was stored.

If anyone does buy out dated paper, is there a specific vendor on Ebay you purchase from?

Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

 

[Ian Grant]

With papers it's all down to storage, temperature.humidity etc. Some paper keep a long time, Simon Galley indicated in a post here around 7 years is about normal before you might see a difference,but in practice they age very slowly and lose speed and contrast.

I have Ilford RC paper that's 15 years old and perfect, some FB rom the 60's that's usable, likewise Kodak Bromide, but some Agfa papers don't store as well partly because the cadmium was removed from their warm-tone papers.

So buying old paper is a risk, if it's been stored improperly it will have aged fast, stored in a cool darkroom it should be fine even 7-10 years old, and often far longer.

Ina

 

[Mike Wilde]

I'm not up on any particular vendor as far as what dies when. Usually the wost is that the high contrasts shift lower, and the paper can exhibit varying levels of fog.

I have ilford fb mg bought less than 5 years ago, and stored in the freezer all the time that has now not more contrast available than grade 3.

I also have 15 year old ilford FB mg ( before the latest version) that who knows how it was stored that still works ok and goes to grade 4. The hard grades of a paper goe first, in my experience.

I have used 30 year old agfa fb paper that was made as hard, ie grade 4, that when I used it last year, was more like 2.5 with a bit of fog.

So no, the thing is quite variable.

I use all sorts of out of date paper. Usually it comes from buying up a long closed up bathc of darkroom gear, or from a lot of stuff at a camera show.

The first thing I do when I start on a new batch is to make a series of test prints through a step wedge with varying degrees of filtration from all yellow to all magenta with a dichroic head.

I make notes of how they were exposed in pencil or sharpie pen on the back as I as expose them, so that I know after processing them as a batch, for the same amount of development for each, which one is which.

You can then count the number of steps between the first non white and the last before all reflective blacks to determine its contrast range (after they have dried - i use my microwave for fb to speed things along). Math from the size of the steps ( 21 step with 1/2 stop 0.15 denity steps or 31 step with 1/3 stop 0.1 density steps ar common are common) lets you figure its effective contrast range to each amount of tested filtration. The grades are related to how much range of desity a neg has. Ilford's new paper data sheets have tables in them to let you figure this out. If a range is stated as say iso 80
it means to me that a neg with log 0.80 (ie a bit more than 5 steps of a .15 step step wedge takes me from white to black with that paper.

You can even figure out how much 'anti filtration' to dial in to speed match when changing grades. say you need 70M, but know that 13M plus 13Y plus 13C All of this information is condensed onto a smallish post it that is taped to the cover of the paper pack/box.

It sounds like a lot of work, but really it isn't. I do it all with a sliced up sheet of 5x7

 

[BetterSense]

I had some Illford MG RC that was probably 10+ years old and it strangely had small hi-density spots all over it. I've had other used agfa paper that was fogged. I came to realize that even paper that was neither fogged nor had spots or other problems was still slower and did not respond as well to multigrade filters as new paper. Comparing with new paper the new paper really had 'pop' compared to the old. Most of my work is not important and can be reprinted so i still use old paper when I can find it, but I do think that older paper is a quality compromise. I do like the Arista EDU.Ultra VCRC paper when I can't find used paper. It's slower than Illford and you have to use fresh developer or it goes warmtone, but I like the look and the finish.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

My suggestion is to stay well away from outdated paper from unknown sources. Not worth the time. Even free hand-me-downs are good for the giver's conscience and cost you a lot of aggravation.

There was a seller on eBay once who opened the box to provide a picture of the paper. Het got offers!

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I agree with Ralph. I've been lucky and have had mostly good luck with old papers, but the problem is inconsistency. And I have learned through the wise that paper choice is basically what you do first when you choose your materials, and everything else is built around it, as far as film processing goes, etc. If your paper isn't consistent, the whole chain falls apart.

For educational purposes, your kids learning the process, etc will maybe be a good use. But to make contact sheets on anything but the paper you're normally printing on is probably not very good practice either, as it ceases to be a valuable tool.

 

[pentaxuser]

I can't speak for the U.S.e-bay but I have bought on the U.K. There are key questions to be asked of the vendor whenever you see paper for sale. Was it bought as new directly from a retailer and if so when? The when is important. Sometimes the vendor will use the word "new" meaning it has never been opened but probing reveals that the word new doesn't mean in recent months not does it mean that it was purchased by the vendor directly from a retailer but from an unknown or unspecified third party.Has it been opened at all and if so was it in a darkroom with known "safe" safelights. How and where has it been stored?

Be wary of paper that has been bought from a third party where the seller cannot specify its origins, especially if the packet has been opened. The more numb and vague the seller is with answers, the more wary you should be.

Buying an unopened pack which has been bought very recently by a student but is being sold as surplus due to course ending/ cancelled etc should be very safe. The further you move from these circumstances the more risk is attached but there are certainly some bargains to be had when you compare e-bay prices with that of buying new from a retailer. Prices of new paper in the U.K. has rocketed in recent months.

Some age fogged paper can be "rescued" to an extent by benzotriazole in my experience

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

Personally I don't buy out of date paper, it's just not worth it. But from the right person I'd possibly take a chance.

I won't sell outdated film or paper either despite having tested it (paper), but I'll give it away it can be useful.

Ian

 

[Phillip P. Dimor]

I've had mixed results. It definitely depends on how it's been stored. I've been working off of a roll of 5" x 1000ft. roll of Kodak polymax that has been expired for about 5+ years now.

Also have a stash of fiber forte elegance/poly, several boxes and that has been stored in airconditioned rooms with no problem for about 5+ years.

A roll of 3.5" polycontrast (very long, more than 1000ft. huge) didn't fare so well, but it was kept in a warm darkroom for a long while. No amount of antifog seems to really help, sadly. Very sad because I've two rolls of it and each roll is ungodly heavy. Ah well.

 

[L.J.SILVER]

This is like a reality check for me. I have several boxes of 16 x 20 Portriga Rapid from 1987. That's how long ago since I had a darkroom and printed! I'm now in the process of building a darkroom and was wondering if my favourite paper from way back when would still be good. Not that I was expecting them to be as good but one lives in hope.

I also have some unopened Kodak Selenium Toner from that era. Anyone know if Selenium Toner deteriorates with time?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

If your Portriga gives you fog problems with regular chemistry, then you can try lith printing with it. It's something I've done with good success. Especially from that time period the paper works really nice for that process, and it gives beautiful colors.
Your selenium toner is probably OK if it was unopened. But at least that will be easy to test.

Edit: To emphasize why lith printing might work is that you significantly overexpose your print, so fog will have less of an overall effect, and you rely on infectious development to form the image. The paper has to have significant amounts of age fog to not work with lith chemistry.

 

[Anon Ymous]

...I also have some unopened Kodak Selenium Toner from that era. Anyone know if Selenium Toner deteriorates with time?

I asked almost the same question recently and the answer I got was that it has a very long shelf life. Mine was from 1999, it was opened, and it works nicely. You can always give it a try.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

This is like a reality check for me. I have several boxes of 16 x 20 Portriga Rapid from 1987. That's how long ago since I had a darkroom and printed! I'm now in the process of building a darkroom and was wondering if my favourite paper from way back when would still be good. Not that I was expecting them to be as good but one lives in hope.

I also have some unopened Kodak Selenium Toner from that era. Anyone know if Selenium Toner deteriorates with time?

Please let us know. I would be very surprised if that paper is still any good. It should be fogged (gray tint) and have no contrast left.

 

[Martin Reed]

It all boils down to what you expect to get out of it. If you want the best, most consistent results, use fresh paper. But if you're interested in attempting to get a unique print out of materials that are no longer with us, why not try? I've got some pre WW2 Gevaluxe (thanks to Ludwig) that still delivers clean prints!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

It all boils down to what you expect to get out of it. If you want the best, most consistent results, use fresh paper. But if you're interested in attempting to get a unique print out of materials that are no longer with us, why not try? I've got some pre WW2 Gevaluxe (thanks to Ludwig) that still delivers clean prints!

No way! Really? 70-year-old+ paper and no fog? Where was this stored? In a lead box, 800 feet below the surface, in a salt mine, filled with liquid nitrogen?

Martin
Are you serious?

 

[Martin Reed]

See PM :-D

 

[L.J.SILVER]

Thanks for the answers. And Thomas Bertilsson, thanks for suggesting lith printing the Portriga Rapid. I am actually looking around for papers that will lith print well at the moment. Martin Reed, I am surprised (and encouraged) by your results with pre-WW2 papers. What's "PM" by the way?

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Second the rec on old warm tone papers for lith, fog or no. Portriga is one that can be hopelessly fogged, yet still lith well. I have been working with a pack of Luminos Portrait Lignon which expired in 1953, useless in conventional processing, but will be sad to see it go with the lith.

 

[removed account4]

i just purchased some potassium nitrate and will be soaking some
outdated paper in it to use as a POP paper.
it might be something else to do with outdated paper from time to time ...
potassium nitrate can be purchased at your local pharmacy or chemical supplier
and it isn't too expensive.

 

[Martin Reed]

Thanks for the answers. And Thomas Bertilsson, thanks for suggesting lith printing the Portriga Rapid. I am actually looking around for papers that will lith print well at the moment. Martin Reed, I am surprised (and encouraged) by your results with pre-WW2 papers. What's "PM" by the way?

It was a personal message to Ralph Lambrecht. I've only so far had one session with the Gevaluxe, but it's been cold stored since then, so I don't anticipate it will have changed in those 3-4 years. I'll re-test. If you can find it, try to get some of the original fibre-based Kodalith LP, which was the paper that really started the lith movement. Discontinued in the mid-70's, I had a little which Tim Rudman tested for his first lith book, and that was working fine at the time, it has a very beautiful surface. However, for a current lithable paper that has a similar surface to that, have a look at the Foma 532 'Nature'.

 

[ozphoto]

I've picked up old paper from my local store; just to have a play around with and have used in several postcard exchanges. I agree with previous posters that it often comes down to how it has been stored.

I have some Ilford graded paper that was given to me nearly 10 years ago, dated in the late 80s I think. Some boxes have been very good - have used for contact sheets as well as postcards, and then had some that was fogged. 1 box just on the edges the 2nd all over.

The best find I had was an unopened box of Agfa paper from the 70s - entire 100 sheets were absolutely perfect! Wish I'd been able to find a whole lot more of these.

I wouldn't spend any more than $5 on old paper; of course free is even better! Have seen some paper on EBay here in Australia also, put in a bid up to $7.50, but lost out to somebody who happily parted with $25. Maybe they lucked out?

- Nanette
www.nanettereid.com

 

[Steve Smith]

I have Ilford RC paper that's 15 years old and perfect

A couple of weeks ago I bought 100 12" x 16" sheets of Ilford Multigrade III RC glossy for just £1.

It seems to be fine. A piece developed and fixed without exposure shows a very slight change from white but it's hardly noticeable.

Not sure when Multigrade changed from III to IV but it's probably about ten years old.


Steve.

 

[Willie Jan]

I have a 1meter high roll of ilford paper 5 years old. Max black is 1.84. Base is fogged a little.
FB paper holds better is my opinion

I do not use these any more. Why using inferior material for printing when it cost a lot of time to create a nice print...

 

[Ian Grant]

Over the years I've acquired a lot of old paper, virtually none paid for,although some was old stock Kodak, because they kept changing the Variable Contrast FB papers in the UK.

Some papers appear to behave almost like new Kodak Bromide and Ilfobrom (both FB) keep very well 50+ years, also the first Ilford Multigrade (RC), Bromesko (FB) was slow and a grade flatter. None of these had any base fog.

However some of the Warmtone papers fair far worse Oriental's Warmtone paper Center is to slow now to use and has a base fog (Martin Reed knows the name - I bought it from him mid 80's). The Sterling warmtone paper built up a high fog after about 10 years, Agfa papers differ, the late Record Rapid doesn't keep as well as the earlier cadmium incororating Record Rapid but I still have some from 1994 that prints fine.

Kodak Polyfibre built up a base fog over about 20 years, it was excellent for about the first 15 years, I had quite a bit in various sizes. I still have some large sheets of 50's/60's Kentmere Bromide to try.

In testing old papers I just use my normal developer ID-78, there are various things I could add to help drop any base fog.

Like Martin says these old papers are worth a try, they could be useless but it's nothing to just try a few sheets at the end of a printing session while the main prints are washing.

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Randy Libersky had a thread a while back about a developer Defender 58D. The trick is it contains chlorohydroquinone, which is near impossible to find now, but if you do, this developer takes care of a lot of age fog. Not all, but much, and it gives a nice print too. The recipe for it should be up here somewhere in the recipe section!

Question: Does making a print too dark on purpose, and then bleaching it back take care of the base fog while the rest of the print is bleached back to normal levels? That could be worth a try, for sure.
Question 2: If you then subsequently toned it in sulfide, I wonder if the fog comes back in color or not...