Buying my first B&W chemicals. Any advice?

Marc Estalella · May 9, 2020

Hello!

I'm about to buy my first chemicals to develop B&W film at home and I would like some advise.

Btw, anyone have tried the MACO eco kit? Is any good (and really eco)?

Thanks!

cjbecker · May 9, 2020

I would get some d76 developer and stick with it for a while. For stop, I just use water, and for fix photographers formulary tf4 fix. All can be ordered from bhphotovideo. All simple to mix and easy to use.

Billy Axeman · May 9, 2020

I buy developer and fixer as powder (Ilford ID-11, Perceptol, Microphen, Adox Adofix P). It allows me to have some extra chemicals in stock because they can be kept almost indefinitely. Another advantage is, when you buy online, that it has a low weight and the other items in your order are not mangled.
I get my chemicals and other stuff from Nordfoto and Fotoimpex in Germany but Macodirect is also a good place to buy.

Pat Erson · May 9, 2020

My advice : powder developer (D-76 used at 1+1 dilution then discarted) and liquid fixer (Ilford 1 litre).

Buena suerte and :
- try to buy local (the shop owner you buy from will be glad to answer your questions. An Internet site, not so much).
- hang your negs to dry in a dust-free area.

Paul Howell · May 9, 2020

I recommend a mid speed film, as you live in Span Ilford FP 4 or Delta 100, although it may cost more than a packet of D76 or ID 11, Rondinal, it's a liquid it will last a very long time ater opening, dilute 1:50 or 1:25 in distilled water, a great developer for mid speed film. ilford Stop Bath and rapid fx, and a wetting agent, Use distilled water for the wetting agent, dry in dust free area.

Sirius Glass · May 9, 2020

I recommend XTOL which is a very forgiving fine grain film that retains sharpness and shadow detail. See how it compares to other developers.

MattKing · May 9, 2020

Welcome to Photrio.
Answers to questions like this are often geographic specific.
The products I use are easy for me to obtain, but may be difficult to obtain in Spain.
For someone new to this it is probably better to learn about what sources for materials and advice are good for those based in Spain - you can always double check the advice here.
It might be best to start another thread with a question like this in the title - "Darkroom chemicals/materials for Spain - sources and recommendations".
You could also "Report" your first post and in the "Report" ask a moderator to change the title of this thread to read that way.

Luckless · May 9, 2020

Poked around online since I wasn't familiar with the product in question, and only notable point I came away with was "“Eco” in Ecostop stands for Economic, which this stop bath certainly is."

Prices don't look overly outlandish, but I'm not super familiar with markets over in Europe. If you're planning on being more environmentally friendly, then I'm not sure what to say beyond follow proper protocol on disposal, especially on your fixer.

Biggest thing is that once you settle on a combination that you can reliably get locally, try to stick with it for awhile till you're nailing your consistency, and your negatives/prints are coming out exactly as you expect even if that means they're coming out with some trait you actually don't like.

Once you can reliably reproduce all of the specific traits in your images, then you can begin the process of adjusting things to dial in the traits you like and avoid the ones you dislike. Photo chemistry is a blend of art and science, but early on it can be easy to dive down a frustrating road of chasing your own tail trying to fix problems before you're able to reliably identify the source of the problem.

You don't need to be pushing science and treating it like you're a chemist after a Nobel prize in understanding every last low level detail, but at least keep your processes consistent from batch to batch, and only make changes for very deliberate reasons.

You're going to find a lot of different camps suggesting you join them with their favourite. And to make things fun for you, not a lot of photographers are great at explaining why they're in a given camp... So you kind of have to read between the lines and look at photographers images. Read up on reviews and look specifically for commentary on why someone is using a given option or process.

That said I typically use Ilford ID-11/Kodak D-76, which ever is cheaper when I go to restock, for no other reason that it is a popular baseline option that is inexpensive and easy to use. Normally go 1:1 one shot developer, with indicator stop bath, and Ilford's rapid fixer.

The powder packs last basically forever if you're storing them halfway sensibly, and the mixed concentrate can sit in a bottle in the dark for several months if you mix some up and don't get around to using it. [I like to break mine down into pre-measured bottles if I have excess left over from a session. It does have a drawback of being advisable to let sit at least over night after mixing before use...]

You can technically get lower cost for higher volumes with some of the other developers, but you're then at risk of lower consistency or having to toss unused chemistry if you're not keeping up with volumes.

mohmad khatab · May 9, 2020

I advise you to buy raw chemistry and prepare photochemistry from scratch.
You should not adhere to one developer as some do.
You should test all formulas yourself.
- The developers are like fruits, each fruit type has a distinct taste,
You cannot compare bananas to apples, this is beautiful and this is beautiful. You cannot do without one.
- We work for each photographer who will be biased to a specific formula from the developer who loves him. (((He who loves him))) Not you. Pay attention to that phrase carefully.
The important question: What do you love?
You do not prefer any developer, because you have not tested all formulas.
- Therefore, I strongly advise you, from buying photographic chemical raw materials and preparing everything from scratch, trust me, you will feel a greater pleasure. In addition to preparing chemistry from scratch it will be very, very saving and you will know that later.
Remember the advice of your brother Mohamed from Egypt.

Mick Fagan · May 9, 2020

The Maco product you are thinking about, is probably one of the better combination purchases for a beginner in B&W photography. You can develop film and if you wish, you can develop paper prints, with a minimum outlay of chemistry and with reasonable cost.

Being a liquid, mixing 1:19 for film is easy. If you need 500ml of developer, place 25ml of Ecoprint into a container, then add water to 500ml and mix it up with a stirring rod, or similar thing. Get the solution up to 20ºC and you are ready to develop film. The stop bath and fixer bath are just as easy to mix up and use. 20ºC is not an absolute, many kits use slightly higher temperatures, so in your first times do what is in the instructions.

Once you become familiar with film developing, you may wish to use more economical chemistry. The most convenient way is liquid developers, usually more expensive as transporting liquid is heavy and safety precautions are needed. Powder developers are often the cheapest, but not always.

Mick.

mshchem · May 10, 2020

I use a lot of XTOL. That being said I would with small bottles of liquid chemistry. I've never tried Maco products but I'm sure they would work fine
Rodinal is a great developer, concentrate keeps well.

Pat Erson · May 10, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I advise you to buy raw chemistry and prepare photochemistry from scratch.
You should not adhere to one developer as some do.

I'd never ever give that advice to a beginner : commercial ("ready to dilute") formulas are ideal for newbies and I'd recommend sticking to one dev before moving to another one.

Luckless · May 10, 2020

I would only suggest mixing your own chemistry right out of the gate if you have a formal background in chemistry and an interest in doing so - You have enough variables at play that will impact your negatives to deal with without diving into the realm of mixing chemistry and the impact of small mistakes or imprecision can have there.

Even if you want to play with mixing your own chemistry, I would still suggest one pick a baseline, learn to nail the consistencies with a reliable commercial option, then replicate the commercial option exactly, and finally dive into the realm of modification.

If you're changing variables at random before you have a reliable baseline you truly understand, then you're not likely actually learning much about the fine details, and the impacts are down to a roll of the dice.

Prest_400 · May 10, 2020

I started with HC110 and stayed there because of the convenience and about a year after and quite a few rolls in, still have half of the bottle left.
For powdered devs, I would second the recommendation for D76/ID11 and XTOL, which I have used when sharing chemistry.
IIRC XTOL is a safer developer for users and the environment. The 5L packs are quite impractical as an amateur user, Fomadon Excel comes in 1L and is deemed to be very similar. Having said that, I would forward the recommendation to stay with one developer and learn it. Negatives are unique and if something goes wrong in development, no going back.

The photo club I'm part of does use some of the Maco eco chemistry, stop bath and paper developer. Works well, really Eco? I don't know if there's really a big difference really as the basic components should be the same. Acetic or citric acid for stop and ammonia/sodium thiosulfate for fix. I actually never use stop bath for film development.

Agulliver · May 10, 2020

I would suggest for a beginner to keep it simple. It's hard to go wrong with ID-11 or D76. Any photo material coated in the last 50 years (indeed probably the last 100 years) will work with these developers. You can also find times for just about any film made in the last 50 years. You can also make up 1 litre of ID-11 and use it for 15 films, some people stretch it to 20. As for longevity, I've just tested a bottle that I found in the back of a cupboard, last used in June 2019 and it worked fine. You will need some plastic chemical bottles if you use powdered developer, do bear that in mind.

I don't use a stop, just water. My fixer of choice is currently Adofix P but any fixer will work.

After using ID-11 or D76 (they're pretty much identical) t hone your technique you can try others...or may stick with ID-11. It's very versatile but you might find that experimenting leads you to something you personally prefer.

grain elevator · May 10, 2020

Maybe you already have an idea what you want from your negatives? My suggestion is to use any of the developers that have lots of manufacturer times published (don't rely on apps and websites). So Ilford or Kodak; or if you use Foma films, Foma developers. Xtol or D76 are good universal options, but you need to mix the powder into water, takes some patience.

Bormental · May 10, 2020

I am not as experienced as many folks here to give advice, but I can share my experience.

When I was getting into film development, I found that D76 / ID-11 to be the easiest to work with because every re-branded emulsion comes to market with recommended development time for this developer. This makes it easy to experiment with non-Kodak and non-Ilford branded films. (and I love experimenting with different films!)

Ultrafine, Foma, Arista, JCH, Rollei or anything you can get your hands on, always comes with a D76 recipe. And even if you can find a recipe on Massive Dev Chart for your less-common developer, D76 will have many more online users sharing tips, results, etc.

Fraunhofer · May 10, 2020

I am with the majority here: do not start out with self mixing. I’d go even further and would recommend ready-made liquid formulations. I also would stay with the same film, paper and chemistry for at least till you’ve used up your first batch of chemistry. Nearly all issues you have in the beginning are your own and not due to the wrong materials. This assumes you are using new materials, anything else would be a mistake for a beginner. Also, stick with manufacturers instructions, times, film speed (!), dilutions etc. these folks know what they are doing (at least better than someone who is starting out). I also would stay away from any replenished film developer, since you invite long forgotten mistakes to haunt you.

Having said that, anything Ilford or Kodak sells as middle of the road developer will work, fix and stop really anything will do the trick.

foc · May 10, 2020

If it's your first time and you want to try something easy and simple,

You can't go wrong this.

John Bragg · May 10, 2020

foc said:
If it's your first time and you want to try something easy and simple,

You can't go wrong this.

And if you like the results, the developer in this kit is Ilfosol 3 and is a breeze to use for beginners and seasoned users alike.

Randy Stewart · May 10, 2020

"That said I typically use Ilford ID-11/Kodak D-76, which ever is cheaper when I go to restock, for no other reason that it is a popular baseline option that is inexpensive and easy to use. Normally go 1:1 one shot developer, with indicator stop bath, and Ilford's rapid fixer."

I started is developing B&W film in 1958. I'll second this advice from a prior reply. If you buy a gallon of stock developer, consider breaking it down for storage in 250 or 500ml bottles, which will let it last longer than if all stored in one big bottle. You'll get a lot of fanboys clammering for HC-110, Rodinal, or who knows what. Skip that stuff until you have some experience and get positive results. That means one film, one developer, and one processing technique until you have worked out reliable and repeatable results. Once you have the basics working, there well be plenty of time try other chemistry for comparison. Tip: be sure to use a developer mixed for use in a dilution where you use it once and toss it out. Most of the options which suggest pouring used developer back in the bottle to use again are leading to unpredictable results.

Sirius Glass · May 10, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I advise you to buy raw chemistry and prepare photochemistry from scratch.
You should not adhere to one developer as some do.
You should test all formulas yourself.
- The developers are like fruits, each fruit type has a distinct taste,
You cannot compare bananas to apples, this is beautiful and this is beautiful. You cannot do without one.
- We work for each photographer who will be biased to a specific formula from the developer who loves him. (((He who loves him))) Not you. Pay attention to that phrase carefully.
The important question: What do you love?
You do not prefer any developer, because you have not tested all formulas.
- Therefore, I strongly advise you, from buying photographic chemical raw materials and preparing everything from scratch, trust me, you will feel a greater pleasure. In addition to preparing chemistry from scratch it will be very, very saving and you will know that later.
Remember the advice of your brother Mohamed from Egypt.

No, no, no.
Starting out keep it simple: one film, one developer, one stop bath with indicator, one fixer [formally called hypo], and one surfactant [PhotoFlo to eliminate streaking on the negatives. Learn those well and then later try different films or developers. This is not a time to play junior chemist, this is the time to learn the basics well so that you have a stong foundation.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 11, 2020

Marc Estalella said:
anyone have tried the MACO eco kit? Is any good (and really eco)?

Looking at the responses so far, it looks like not many have used this kit. If you plan to use it, please share your experiences and I'm sure it'll be found useful by several.

Tom Kershaw · May 11, 2020

I'd be tempted to use the ILFORD line of chemicals but that 'simplicity' range seems very expensive on a per film basis.

Suggest something along the lines of:

DD-X for film - available as 1l - this developer can be used for all films. If working with medium speed films (e.g Delta 100 or FP4 Plus) Ilfosol-3 should be fine.

Ilfostop stop bath - 500ml

Rapid fix - available as 1l

Ilfotol wetting agent - 1l of this should last a very long time.

Billy Axeman · May 11, 2020

What does 'eco' mean actually, economical, ecological?
Can't find any info on the Maco web site.
In the description of the Moersch eco developer, for example, they use both meanings in one sentence.

When a fixer is ecological when looking at the chemicals you still can't pour it down the drain because after use it contains silver.

When it means economical you must know the capacity of the developer and fixer and compare the various brands.

Moerch, Rollei and Adox have also 'eco' chemicals.
Fotoimpex has safety data sheets on the web site. Good luck figuring them out.

The problem with these exotic developers is that you can't be sure they are available in the future. When your process is fine-tuned to a certain developer you can start all over again when it is discontinued. So, strategically it's better to use a classic developer that has been around for several years. The stop bath and fixer are not critical.

Buying my first B&W chemicals. Any advice?

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