Buying Flexicolor C41 chems will drive you nuts

I should mention that I mix a liter at a time of each of the chemicals except the bleach, which requires no mixing. I also replenish the developer and the fixer as I go along
Kodak has a PDF document for mixing smaller than package amounts of chemicals. That makes it economical to use these chemicals.
The SM chemicals are fine if you aren't developing too much film. The packages are small and kind of expensive, except for the bleach.

ctsundevil, thanks for that list of CAT numbers. Since that is a complete list and a confirmed supplier, It would be great if you would add that info to the sticky thread at the top of this subforum.

I guess you probably run out of different chemicals at different times, and then just buy what you need as you go?

That PDF document you are referring to from Kodak is CIS-49, and it is indeed worth downloading. I printed out a copy and put it in my darkroom. It's linked to in many threads, but it won't hurt to link it again so people don't have to go hunting for it.

ctsundevil said:

I should mention that I mix a liter at a time of each of the chemicals except the bleach, which requires no mixing. I also replenish the developer and the fixer as I go along
Kodak has a PDF document for mixing smaller than package amounts of chemicals. That makes it economical to use these chemicals.
The SM chemicals are fine if you aren't developing too much film. The packages are small and kind of expensive, except for the bleach.

Click to expand...

How do you deal with oxidation / degradation of Part C of the developer, which, from what I've read, is quite fragile once opened. Do you purge with some inert gas?

--Greg

Greg, I'd like to hear what ctsundevil does, but I would use my Beseler XDL Spray. It's a CFC, and no longer on the market. Once it's gone, other possibilities mentioned in another recent thread are butane (which is flamable) or "canned air", which is either difluoroethane (HFC-152a), trifluoroethane (HFC-143a), or tetrafluoroethane (HFC-134a). "Canned air" products may contain bitterants. I do not know if these might react with developers.

Some folks use nitrogen.

SkipA said:

Couple of places that have the Trebla Treylux FilmPAC currently listed:

Pakor - Part Number: 444-2648 - Trebla Trelux FilmPac C-41RA Kit - Trebla Part Number 55FP475

NovaGraphics - Trelux FilmPAC Kit - 55FP475

I haven't contacted either to see if they are truly in stock.

To those of you, Mark Barendt or others, who have used the Trebla FilmPAC 55FP475, did you do one-shot processing? Anyone use a rotary processor (e.g., CPP-2)? Was there enough information included with the kit to help you figure out how to mix less than full volumes?

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I have used it in stainless tanks and with my CPA2. I don't do enough volume to keep the working developer fresh for long. The rest of the chemicals are very durable and get replenished as used.

With the developer I use a modified replenishment scheme. I make up enough to fill the tank plus replenish for any subsequent runs to be done in say the following 10-days. Past that i dispose of the working solution.

This gives me developer of normal strength and normal activity. If I save up a few rolls this becomes very efficient very quickly. If I'm in a hurry for I just one shot the developer. At about $23 for 10-liters it's cheap enough to one shot when needed.

SkipA said:

Greg, I'd like to hear what ctsundevil does, but I would use my Beseler XDL Spray. It's a CFC, and no longer on the market. Once it's gone, other possibilities mentioned in another recent thread are butane (which is flamable) or "canned air", which is either difluoroethane (HFC-152a), trifluoroethane (HFC-143a), or tetrafluoroethane (HFC-134a). "Canned air" products may contain bitterants. I do not know if these might react with developers.

Some folks use nitrogen.

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I just use propane, keep it round for camping and starting fires anyway.

Yes it is flammable but the amount used is so small as not to be an issue unless you are smoking or running a Bunsen burner.

How do you deal with oxidation / degradation of Part C of the developer, which, from what I've read, is quite fragile once opened. Do you purge with some inert gas?

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It;'s not that fragile if the bottle is closed tightly and stored undisturbed in a cool, dark place. Try storing the opened Part C bottle (and any similar chems for RA-4, etc) in ziploc bags. Sometimes I double bag. They are cheap and very airtight. I've done this for quite a while and have not had problems. (Currently, I am halfway through a 5 gal bottle of flexicolor dev/replen) Adding some other type of gas to displace oxygen doesn't hurt either. Usually, I mix a litre, fill a 750ml bottle (ie vodka) and use the remainder as replenisher. To replenish I add some new developer solution to the bottle while the developer is in the tank and then dump any leftover when returning the used solution to the 750ml bottle. When the 250ml of replenisher is gone, I make a new litre and start again. This method gives me 12 or 14 rolls per litre.

Contrary to what I have written elsewhere about being successful, do not try to freeze C-41 developer to keep it. It doesn't work - as I was told it wouldn't work by several, knowledgable people on this forum. I got away with it once but that was it. :confused: live and learn.

The powder developer isn't all that great. If you don't want to purchase the kodak (or other) bulk chemicals, then get a digibase kit from Freestyle or the Kodak repackaged C-41 kit from the Formulary. You will get much better results.

Skip, et al -

Agreed, it can be confusing. Indeed it seems Pakor is not selling certain items anymore that I had listed in the sticky, particularly the 5Gal bleach III.

A few notes:

Adorama and B&H have never shipped bleach. Or if they do, it's part A only. Pakor is the only place at the time I found wililng to ship A & B (which were in the same box in the 5 Gal size.) Unique seems like they might ship A&B also, which is a plus. (I put some bleach part B in my cart and did a partial checkout, and didn't see hazmat applied, which is a nice plus!). I am ok with having to order from multiple places, as often that is the way to get the best price on this stuff.

For most C-41 bleach you need part A and B. 12.5gal seems the commonest size now, which is a bit large, considering how much bleach can be recycled. Based on my use, bleach to make 12.5 G would last for years, at the rate I use it and regenerate it. It's expensive, but stores well and keeps forever, plus very reusable (with regenerator) so although the one-time cost is high, the long-term cost is low.

Fixer is dirt cheap. Developer is pretty cheap too. Final rinse: If you really want to save $ and time, just mix your own - it's just photoflow and water, from what PE has said. I use the kodak final rinse but once that runs out may mix my own.

I stuck with regular C-41, not the LORR, RA or SM versions. All of those are compromises in some way, I think - either designed for reduced wash, for roller transport machines, or other things. Plus they are more expensive by volume than regular C-41.

Although quantities can be high (particularly the bleach), the kodak C-41 is I think the most economical (and probably best quality) way to do C-41 at home. recycling bleach, my per-roll cost is well under $1/roll for 35mm or 120/220.

I use one-shot in a Phototherm SSK4, recycling the bleach only.

-Ed

Hey Ed, thanks for the info and for checking out Unique.

I thought that final rinse or stabilizer had to have formaldehyde or formalin in it to help to preserve the film. If the current version of final rinse is just photoflow and water, then it definitely makes sense to make your own.

I notice that Trebla designates their Trelux Stabilizer as E.L.F, Extremely Low Formaldehyde. They say it's not formulated with Formaldehyde, but contains 0.01%.

EdSawyer said:

Fixer is dirt cheap. Developer is pretty cheap too. Final rinse: If you really want to save $ and time, just mix your own - it's just photoflow and water, from what PE has said. I use the kodak final rinse but once that runs out may mix my own.

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I think you may have mis-interpreted some of PE statements...Final Rinse is not just Photo-Flo and water, from my understanding of things. It does contain an ingredient to stabilize the color dyes. Stabilizer III accomplished this with formaldehyde, and this will work on all C-41 films. Newer films (after 2002 or 2003 from what I've read) require final rinse, which accomplishes the dye stabilization in some other way, with zero (or extremely little) formaldehyde. Older print films will not be stabilized by modern final rinse.

From the Kodak MSDS for Flexicolor SM Final Rinse
Dead Link Removed

3. Composition/information on ingredients
Weight % Components - (CAS-No.)
5 - 10 Diethylene glycol (111-46-6)
1 - 5 Mixture of C12-15 alcohol ethoxylates (68131-39-5)
0.1 - < 1 Magnesium nitrate (10377-60-3)
0.1 - < 1 Isothiazolone derivatives (proprietary)
0.1 - < 1 Magnesium chloride (7786-30-3)

Hope that helps clear things up.

--Greg

I haven't had any problem with spoilage of the C-41 developer components. I keep the bottles closed tight and they are stored in a closet that stays cool. The developer I listed is the LU version of C-41. That stands for Low Utilization. It's designed to sit around. It keeps very well.

As far as the different versions of C-41: LORR stands for Low Replenishment Rate, RA is Rapid Access, SM requires no mixing and is for a certain kind of Mini-lab and also is marketed for home use.
The only one you should avoid for home use is C-41RA. It's not meant for small tank or drum processing.

The LU developer is the successor to LORR. I got locked into this developer inadvertently. This developer was locally available when I started processing C-41. They didn't have the starter, so I ordered one bottle of the starter from Liberty Photo, they sent me one case. The starter doesn't expire and I still have ten more bottles. I'll be using this developer for a long time.

While I still think the best starter kit is the Trebla 55FP475 kit if it's available, once you get past the mental block of wanting everything in one box/stop, ordering from two spots can solve the problem.

In fact if you are anything like me as you learn the process you'll likely ruin or dump inadvertantly some good chemicals which ruins the ratio of developer to bleach to fixer which, btw, wasn't really matched to start with.

What I'm getting at is that once you know what you need you'll probably start buying the individual chemicals as you go.

There is no problem using "Normal" Kodak C41 developer, then Kodak "SM" Bleach, Photographers Formulary TF5 Fixer, and Trebla Final Rinse. Each just needs to be used properly for its own bath.

The next time I get Dead Link Removed, Dead Link Removed, and Dead Link Removed it will probably come from Adorama. (Links included there.) the developer is the one that expires so the 5-gallon one will set me up for close to a year, that keeps it fresh enough. I'm going to get the C41 fix that makes 25-gallons because it can be used for everything else too. Yep, color/B&W, Film/paper. I'm even considering using C41 rinse for my B&W film too once I run out of Photoflo.

The SM bleach is what I have been using for the last year, think I got it at Liberty, one part ready to use, and it does it's work faster than the standard A/B bleach. Kodak 8824690 2-bottles in one case, about $67 from Pakor, Liberty, Armadillo, ... Hazmat so UPS ground. There is no problem storing this for a long time. 1080-24exp rolls. You can get that full capacity too as long as you don't goof up the working solution. It will be 3-4 years before I need to order this again.

All of these get replaced only when needed.

Greg, thanks for clarification on final rinse, I stand corrected.

Ed

markbarendt said:

While I still think the best starter kit is the Trebla 55FP475 kit if it's available, once you get past the mental block of wanting everything in one box/stop, ordering from two spots can solve the problem.

In fact if you are anything like me as you learn the process you'll likely ruin or dump inadvertantly some good chemicals which ruins the ratio of developer to bleach to fixer which, btw, wasn't really matched to start with.

What I'm getting at is that once you know what you need you'll probably start buying the individual chemicals as you go.

There is no problem using "Normal" Kodak C41 developer, then Kodak "SM" Bleach, Photographers Formulary TF5 Fixer, and Trebla Final Rinse. Each just needs to be used properly for its own bath.

The next time I get Dead Link Removed, Dead Link Removed, and Dead Link Removed it will probably come from Adorama. (Links included there.) the developer is the one that expires so the 5-gallon one will set me up for close to a year, that keeps it fresh enough. I'm going to get the C41 fix that makes 25-gallons because it can be used for everything else too. Yep, color/B&W, Film/paper. I'm even considering using C41 rinse for my B&W film too once I run out of Photoflo.

The SM bleach is what I have been using for the last year, think I got it at Liberty, one part ready to use, and it does it's work faster than the standard A/B bleach. Kodak 8824690 2-bottles in one case, about $67 from Pakor, Liberty, Armadillo, ... Hazmat so UPS ground. There is no problem storing this for a long time. 1080-24exp rolls. You can get that full capacity too as long as you don't goof up the working solution. It will be 3-4 years before I need to order this again.

All of these get replaced only when needed.

Click to expand...

The problem is that they don't often tell you what can be substituted. For example can you use C41 bleach for E6 or RA4 , then it wouldn't be so bad that you need to buy it in larger quantities. Same goes for fixer, I realise that such products might need to be mixed differently for different processes. Then you only need to buy special products for special processes, and yeah if standard B&W film developer will work as a first developer for E6, maybe note that too.... If you need 6 bottles of product for 3 processes, then that makes sense, if your buying in larger quantities. It would also make sense to combine products,

wogster said:

The problem is that they don't often tell you what can be substituted. For example can you use C41 bleach for E6 or RA4 , then it wouldn't be so bad that you need to buy it in larger quantities. Same goes for fixer, I realise that such products might need to be mixed differently for different processes. Then you only need to buy special products for special processes, and yeah if standard B&W film developer will work as a first developer for E6, maybe note that too.... If you need 6 bottles of product for 3 processes, then that makes sense, if your buying in larger quantities. It would also make sense to combine products,

Click to expand...

Actually there is a universal bleach Made by Trebla that actually claims usability on both E6 and C41.

RA 4?

Maybe the problem is us, maybe we are getting lazy.

Well, I'm not lazy, but I do have limited space. Even so, I wouldn't want to use separate bleach and fix for RA-4. RA-4 is designed for a combined bleach and fix. From everything I've read by experimenters on this forum, it's not a good idea to bleach and fix separately for RA-4.

Hey Mark and ctsundevil, thank you both for the detailed info on the products you are using and the usage information.