Buying film in bulk?

brofkand · Aug 21, 2008

Hey all,

I was perusing Freestyle today and saw they sell "cans" of film. Now, I understand this is for "rolling your own" film canisters for 35mm.

I thought about doing this. But, to those who have done it before:

Is it difficult to do, and do you really come out cheaper? A 100' can of film is $30...approx. how many rolls of 24 or 36 exp. film can you get from that?

Saganich · Aug 21, 2008

16 rolls of 36 give or take one or two. The problem is reusing cans, after two uses they start to scratch the film, annoying to say the least. I get used cans for free from the local lab (although their supply is dwindling) and I reroll by taping my film onto the end of the old leader and spooling it up in a bulk loader. Never a problem.

brofkand · Aug 21, 2008

So you are saving about a dollar a roll in raw film costs.

Freestyle also sells reusable cans. Are they made to last longer than the one-time-use cans from the local lab, or are they the same thing?

I'd assume the thing that's scratching the film is the light block around the opening, correct?

srs5694 · Aug 21, 2008

I think 16 36-exposure rolls per 100-foot roll is a bit pessimistic; I'd peg the number at more like 18 rolls. I suppose it depends on what you consider a "36-exposure roll," though. For instance, depending on how they're used, bulk film loaders will fog a bit of film at the end of the roll. If you add extra film to each roll to compensate for this and still get the typical 36-38 exposures per "36 exposure" roll, the number of rolls per 100-foot roll would probably drop a bit. Personally, I eliminate fogging by turning out the room lights when attaching film to re-usable cartridges. This complicates the process, but IMHO it's worth it. This trick doesn't work when re-using single-use cartridges, since attaching the new film to the stub of old film is tricky enough that I've never been able to do it in total darkness.

Scratches do tend to appear because of dust that accumulates in the felt light traps. I've heard of people using Post-It notes to clean these -- fold the Post-It over so that the sticky part is on the outside and then run it through the felt light trap. The theory is that the glue will "grab" dust particles but isn't strong enough to damage the felt. Other people use compressed air to clean their cartridges. Even with careful cleaning, though, I don't think you'd get more than a handful of uses out of most cartridges. Sooner or later, the felt will degrade or get ripped out, or the cartridge will get bent or cracked in a way that'll make it useless. I seldom try re-using single-use cartridges more than once; they're plentiful enough that there's no point to doing it. The one exception is if I need DX-coded cartridges for an unusual film speed, such as ISO 50. (I've got a couple of cameras that use DX codes and have no way to override them, so getting my bulk-loaded film DX coded is important to me.)

If you want to try reloading minilab cartridges, check this photo.net thread. There are photos of the procedure about 2/3 of the way down. I've done this, and I've also used both plastic and metal re-usable cartridges. Which approach I prefer changes with each roll, usually to the method I'm not using. (Each method has its annoyances, which seem particularly bad when I encounter them and not so bad five minutes later.)

J Ollinger · Aug 22, 2008

Rolling your own is very easy to do. You just have to show reasonable caution in handling the film. If you load it into the bulk-loader correctly and make sure the light traps are closed properly, you'll be fine. A lot of loaders have safeties so that it's hard to have both light traps open at the same time.

I also get cannisters from the local 1-hour labs. Often times if you ask them they'll give them to you. Usually what you do is tape the film onto the little stub of film that was left hanging out of the cartridge. Reloadables break apart so that you can tape the end of the film directly onto the spool and reassemble. The problem I have with reloadables is that after a few uses they sometimes get sloppy and fall apart easily.

There is the risk of scratching, as has been mentioned. If you inspect the felt trap and keep it clean and reasonably tight, you should be okay. That's the other problem with re-using cannisters too many times--the traps get worn or bent slightly and you risk fogging your film.

Film is cheaper in bulk if you do the math and price it out. The bad part is that you have to lay out more money up front, and you've committed yourself to a particular emulsion for quite some time. If you stick with one type of film all the time, then it's great. If you like to switch around and get that or the other, then it's not so great.

One of the neat things about bulk-loaders is that you can make up custom lengths. Depending on the film stock, you're usually best not to go above 36exp, but if you want a short roll just for tests, you can knock one out. If you find you normally only shoot 30 exposures and you're always wasting the last 6--you can make 30exp rolls. Or 20 exp rolls. Or 10. Whatever you want.

kodachrome64 · Aug 22, 2008

A lot of people talk about fogging the last 2 frames or so on a roll, and I've been able to get around this without turning the lights off and doing it in the dark. I don't want to do that because I can load them while watching TV or something and it goes really fast. I have an old style Lloyd-type loader that I bought second hand (different from a Watson). I am able to pull out just enough of the film to get it attached well to the spool, slip the spool on, screw the cap on the reusable cartridge, and wind the film in with the lid closed. I get all of the frames because, if I'm careful, the only part of the film that's fogged is the part that is between the tape and the last frame. Just my 2 cents.

Nick

brofkand · Aug 22, 2008

Do the film winders cut a notch into the leader?

johnnywalker · Aug 22, 2008

Presuming you mean cutting the tapered part for the cameras that need it, you have to do that yourself. It's pretty fast with a small pair of scissors though.

AgX · Aug 22, 2008

Further information can be found on the site of our (lost?) felllow member Roger Hicks:
http://rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps howdoi.html

kodachrome64 · Aug 22, 2008

No cutting of the leader, but that's pretty simple once you get the hang of it.

nworth · Aug 22, 2008

Saganich said:
16 rolls of 36 give or take one or two. The problem is reusing cans, after two uses they start to scratch the film, annoying to say the least. I get used cans for free from the local lab (although their supply is dwindling) and I reroll by taping my film onto the end of the old leader and spooling it up in a bulk loader. Never a problem.

I have some film cans that have been in use for 50 years and probably have had a hundred loads, and they are still good. I admit that not all last that long, but the reloadable cans are pretty good. The cans you get film in are not reloadable, since they are generally damaged by opening, but most of the big outlets have reloadable cans for sale.

Bulk loading is pretty easy, and it may give some minor savings, depending on the price breaks you get. But be sure you use enough of that film to use up 18 rolls (36 ex) before the film expires. An advantage is that you can load any number of exposures you like. Sometimes you really only want 10 or 12 exposures, and bulk loading avoids the waste of a long roll. You can either buy a daylight bulk loader or cut the film in the darkroom. The bulk loaders all work pretty well, but the frame counting is approximate. If you cut the film in the darkroom, cut some string to the length of the rolls you want to make and use it to measure the film.

brofkand · Aug 22, 2008

Thanks for that link, AgX. Lots of info on that site.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Aug 22, 2008

I bought three cans of Pan F+, and rolled 50 36/ex rolls...still have some of that last can left too. I got roughly 18-19 rolls to the can.
A bulk roll of XP2 Super is what got me into photography, and I've never had a problem with scratches.

Mick Fagan · Aug 22, 2008

I use bulk loaded film and have done so for the last 30 odd years.

I get 18, 37 frame rolls of film + about 1/3 of a roll spare. There is a slight difference between 100' rolls and 30m rolls.

I load 37 frames to each roll to ensure I get 36 frames on my wide bodied Nikon F3's.

Basically you take the cost of a bulk roll and divide it by 18 to get your cost per film, it is that simple. You will also have a small roll of about 12/15 frames to use as a test roll, if you wish.

The best bulk loaders are ones where the film passes through a gate that opens up when closed, to allow the film to pass through untouched by anything.

Various methods are used by the different manufacturers to get the film through a light tight box in daylight to a film cassette. Some have a felt light trap, I'm not convinced that they are that good as eventually you may get some dirt or whatever entrapped in the felt, which may then leave a tram line running down the entire roll of film, not a great thing.

If you do a search on the site here you should find various threads on bulk loading and bulk loaders.

They really are a great way to save money, in this country. I currently have bulk loaded film that costs me $2.56 AUD per 36 frame roll to load. Purchasing the same film in a pre-packaged factory cassette, costs me about $8.00. That is a substantial difference.

Depending on the country you live in, bulk loading can be very cost efficient, or so so. Whatever, once you start bulk loading you will either keep on doing it, or give it the flick. Most people I know keep on doing it. The time it takes is minimal and you have the convenience of bulk loading 12 - 15 18 or whatever frames to a cassette if you so desire.

Mick.

AgX · Aug 22, 2008

And it saves quite some space in the deep freezer...

pentaxuser · Aug 22, 2008

If you have a look at the Roger and Frances site as suggested, you'll see a reference to a Shirley Wellard reloadable cassette and mention of some others such as Nikon that rely on the "labyrinthine" principle to prevent light access rather than a fabric mouth which can harbour dust etc. In other words a labyrinth is built into the cassette which relies on light not being able to turn corners. Some bulk loaders work on the same principle. If you can find such cassettes then the search and cost might be worthwhile as there is then nothing to wear out and the cassette lasts forever.

I have to confess I have never seen one on e-bay but I imagine that camera sales are the place to go where enthusiasts sell and buy cameras and accessories.

Unfortunately I have no idea whether such sales exist in the U.S. or whether such cassettes such as Shirley Wellard are available. That's one of the problems with friends across the water. Things are sometimes wholly different.

pentaxuser

srs5694 · Aug 22, 2008

brofkand said:
Do the film winders cut a notch into the leader?

As others have said, bulk loaders don't do this. In most cases a single diagonal cut with scissors will do. This produces a straight edge on the leader rather than the curved one found on factory-loaded film, but it works fine with most cameras. A couple of twists with the scissors produces a close approximation of a standard factory-cut leader. There are also cutting tools that are supposed to do this automatically. The basic design is just a couple of pieces of metal, one cut to the shape of the leader. Put the film between them and pull up. This results in the leader being cut. I've got one of these but it doesn't work so well for me; the film slides around, resulting in an uneven cut. Maybe there's a trick to using it, or maybe other models are better than what I've got.

Bruce Osgood · Aug 22, 2008

There is another advantage to bulk loading. You do not have to load 36 exposures. You may want to load fewer in order to have flexibility in development.

If you carry several rolls of 12 exposures, it is not hard to shoot off a roll intending plus development, another for normal development. You do loose some economy but gain some flexibility.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 22, 2008

kodachrome64 said:
I don't want to do that because I can load them while watching TV or something and it goes really fast. I have an old style Lloyd-type loader
Nick

Watching TV and counting crank turns?

You're better than I am!

"41, 42, 43....damn! full cart, meant to stop at 31."

Nicholas Lindan · Aug 22, 2008

The Freestyle re-use cassettes have nice fuzzy light trap felt. They are probably Russian. In Russia you bought a 36 exp. load of 35mm film w/0 the cassette and put it into the cassette yourself, so cassettes were big business and are made for multiple uses.

If you have an early M-Leica or F or F2-Nikon you can get cassettes with rotating light trap doors. There is no felt to scratch the film. The door opens and closes when you latch the camera back with the knob on the baseplate. Alden loaders work with these cassettes, Lloyds don't, I do not know about the others.

srs5694 · Aug 22, 2008

The last time I bought any (three years ago or so), Freestyle was selling reusable cartridges that were made in Spain, IIRC.

I've actually got a bunch of Russian-made plastic cartridges. Some Svema film I bought on eBay came in them. I prefer them to the generic plastic cartridges I bought from B&H.

Monophoto · Aug 22, 2008

brofkand said:
Hey all,

I was perusing Freestyle today and saw they sell "cans" of film. Now, I understand this is for "rolling your own" film canisters for 35mm.

I thought about doing this. But, to those who have done it before:

Is it difficult to do, and do you really come out cheaper? A 100' can of film is $30...approx. how many rolls of 24 or 36 exp. film can you get from that?

I've been doing it for more than 30 years, so I have a little practice.

It's a bit more economical than purchasing loaded cassettes. A 100ft bulk roll can be cut down into about 18 roles of 35 exposures (which exactly fills an 8x10 in negative sleeve, 6-5 exposures strips).

I've always used a bulk loader - I purchased a "Telesar" model more than 30 years ago, and while the automatic counter mechanism gave up the ghost several years ago, the basic functionality remains - it provides a light-tight method of spooling the film. I can count the number of times that the handle goes around, and that's pretty close to the number of exposures. I have a couple of others that I have acquired along the way, but the Telesar still works just fine.

I have been reusing the same cassettes for most of the 30 year period. The source is irrelevant since it's no longer available. There is a theoretical concern that grit could become embedded in the felt light trap and scratch the film - I just wipe the felt with a hard edge, usually the back of the scissors blade, to dislodge any grit that might be there. I had one instance when the film was scratched, but that was when I was experimenting with a bulk loader that I bought at a garage sale for 50 cents, and the lesson was that you want to make sure that the design of the loader doesn't force the film to pass over a hard edge.

The one thing that you might have to do is be prepared to renumber the frames since you can't rely on factory numbering. I've used either a Koh-in-Noor Rapidograph with India ink, or a Staedler "Pigment Liner" for this - either puts a very dense line on film that is permanent. You do need to allow time for the markings to dry before you load the film into sleeves. I've also used Sharpies, but they aren't as dense, so the numbers aren't as distinct.

patrickjames · Aug 22, 2008

Monophoto said:
The one thing that you might have to do is be prepared to renumber the frames since you can't rely on factory numbering. I've used either a Koh-in-Noor Rapidograph with India ink, or a Staedler "Pigment Liner" for this - either puts a very dense line on film that is permanent. You do need to allow time for the markings to dry before you load the film into sleeves. I've also used Sharpies, but they aren't as dense, so the numbers aren't as distinct.

I tried doing this and it is a little bit of a pain, granted it is the best way though. I number the outside of the negative sheet now with a sharpie. It goes much faster.

Patrick

Nicholas Lindan · Aug 22, 2008

Monophoto said:
I've used either a Koh-in-Noor Rapidograph with India ink, or a Staedler "Pigment Liner" for this

I use Sharpie markers - the mark isn't as dense, but it can be completely removed with PEC-12 film emulsion cleaner without harming the film.

srs5694 · Aug 22, 2008

Concerning numbering, most bulk film is numbered; it's just that the numbers won't be sensible for most rolls -- the first frame might be numbered 20, then 21, and so on up to 40 or so, then it starts over at 1. Personally, I'm not bothered by this.

A few films, such as Foma, have no numbers in their bulk versions. I'm also not bothered by this. When I need to record a frame number for future reference, I do it by strip and frame number -- for instance, strip #2, frame #3. This makes it easy for me to find the negative. The main risk would be if I were to pull two strips from a roll and forget which one should go where in the sequence.

Buying film in bulk?

brofkand

Saganich

brofkand

srs5694

J Ollinger

kodachrome64

brofkand

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AgX

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nworth

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Mick Fagan

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srs5694

Bruce Osgood

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Monophoto

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