Buying a Medium Format Camera for Street/Travel Photography

[Ko.Fe.]

OP needs external viewfinder to match his camera lens FOV, not a new camera.

Here is no reason to haul around camera in hands for two hours which is slow to operate and has movements, which are required tripod.

Walk with viewfinder for framing checking, find the place and best racurs. Get ready and wait for the moment or light at least.

If not satisfied with this, do what HCB did in terms of the camera, street and travel photography.

 

[macfred]

Mamiya Super 23 - 9omm f/3.5

There are also the 100mm f/3.5, and the outstanding high-speed 100mm f/2.8 with a higher reputation.
A nice thread on photo.net about the Mamiya Super 23 system (nice photographs with different lenses included) : http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00WZtN?start=0

 

[cowanw]

Probably 2 reasons. Either/or/both:

1: Hasselblad won't license the lens mount
2: while there are Hasselblads with focal plane shutters, the vast majority use in-lens leaf shutters. Trying to pass the aperture control from the body to the lens through a T/S adapter is hard enough, but I would imagine triggering the shutter and the aperture together would be even harder, especially when it is a mechanical trigger.

Yes to both.
I am using the 205 however, and I wonder if the pentacon mount version could be combined with an adaptor fabricated from an optically trashed Hasselblad lens, as it can be with other adaptors ( according to Hartblei)

 

[Bipin]

There are also the 100mm f/3.5, and the outstanding high-speed 100mm f/2.8 with a higher reputation.
A nice thread on photo.net about the Mamiya Super 23 system (nice photographs with different lenses included) : http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00WZtN?start=0

That's quite helpful, thank you. The 100mm f/2.8 seems like an excellent lens, but the fact it is not collapsible (and thus cannot be used at infinity with movements) is a negative for me. That said, while I couldn't focus at infinity with it, what is the farthest in-focus distance I could achieve with a small amount of tilt or swing? With it not being collapsible, does a little bit of movement put focus into at most a meter away, five meters away, a few centimeters away?

In reference to Ko.Fed's comment, which I'm not sure if I understood correctly, I want a system which is first and foremost a medium format rangefinder but has the option of using some movements if the situation calls for it. By no means would I be using movements for every shot. I'd handle it just like any other rangefinder for the vast majority of time, akin to how Eggleston used his Super 23, but every now and then I want a bit of movement. Not enough to warrant carrying a field camera or a large tripod, but I've come across too many situations in the past where I wished I had a small amount of tilt, swing or to a lesser extent shift. For that, I don't mind carrying a GG and a tabletop tripod in my coat pocket or in a bag, which I generally have on me. My mini Roch tripod/clamp (one of those red ones) can hold at least 5 lbs.; a bit more than the weight of a Super 23, which from what I've read is 4.3lbs.

Sorry if my intended use wasn't clear and led some of you astray, but this kind of workflow is what I'm aiming to achieve with a new camera system.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Think about a Speed Graphic 23 "baby" then. Or a full-on 4x5 Super Speed Graphic. You'll have the rangefinder focusing, hand-holdability, a virtually infinite selection of lenses to work from, and minimal but useable movements. They're abundant and inexpensive, and the 4x5's can take Graflok backs so you can use roll-film holders to shoot 6x7 or 6x9 on 120.

 

[wombat2go]

Think about a Speed Graphic 23 "baby" then.

Last year I travelled to Australia with the baby Graflex with f/4.5 103mm Graftar and walked around Sydney with it (in backpack) one day.
https://app.box.com/s/guawvk0g2ods4g0xlms00t42pvyrpovl
https://app.box.com/s/4yt9pobksv5vanl70q2w37xe1ym3gntg
It is a nice camera, light too

Next week I am going to Australia (NSW and Tas) with the RB67, 1:4.5 50mm lens and the prism.
Heavy ?... I know !

 

[Dan Fromm]

Two comments.

Shooting handheld with movements is idiotic. Cross off that requirement.

Everyone but me who has a Graphic tells the innocent -- that's the OP -- that the wretched things have usable movements. I've shot 2x3 Graphics for decades. I like them. They're very useful tools, also cheap and cheerful. But movements? Nothing usable.

No rear movements.

At the front, limited rise, not generally usable fall. 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics, including the Century, have 19 mm front rise. Not enough and requires more coverage than original issue normal lenses, including the marsupial's 103 Graftar (much under-rated lens, by my tests the best of the original issue normal lenses), have.

Limited front shift (~ 10 mm) that can be used only when the front standard is in front of the bed struts. Normal lenses for 2x3 make infinity with the front standard inside the struts.

No front swing.

Rear tilt at the front, no forwards tilt. But, everyone says, forwards tilt can be obtained by dropping the bed and tilting the front standard less than all the way back. This is true but there's a catch. It works for only a limited range of focal lengths at a limited range of focused distances. Much extension needed to focus? The film plane will be outside the lens coverage because of the limited rise. And it isn't there at all for lenses that focus to the desired distance while the front standard is on the inner bed rails.

 

[Bipin]

Last year I travelled to Australia with the baby Graflex with f/4.5 103mm Graftar and walked around Sydney with it (in backpack) one day.
https://app.box.com/s/guawvk0g2ods4g0xlms00t42pvyrpovl
https://app.box.com/s/4yt9pobksv5vanl70q2w37xe1ym3gntg
It is a nice camera, light too

Next week I am going to Australia (NSW and Tas) with the RB67, 1:4.5 50mm lens and the prism.
Heavy ?... I know !

Think about a Speed Graphic 23 "baby" then. Or a full-on 4x5 Super Speed Graphic. You'll have the rangefinder focusing, hand-holdability, a virtually infinite selection of lenses to work from, and minimal but useable movements. They're abundant and inexpensive, and the 4x5's can take Graflok backs so you can use roll-film holders to shoot 6x7 or 6x9 on 120.

Two comments.

Shooting handheld with movements is idiotic. Cross off that requirement.

Everyone but me who has a Graphic tells the innocent -- that's the OP -- that the wretched things have usable movements. I've shot 2x3 Graphics for decades. I like them. They're very useful tools, also cheap and cheerful. But movements? Nothing usable.

No rear movements.

At the front, limited rise, not generally usable fall. 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics, including the Century, have 19 mm front rise. Not enough and requires more coverage than original issue normal lenses, including the marsupial's 103 Graftar (much under-rated lens, by my tests the best of the original issue normal lenses), have.

Limited front shift (~ 10 mm) that can be used only when the front standard is in front of the bed struts. Normal lenses for 2x3 make infinity with the front standard inside the struts.

No front swing.

Rear tilt at the front, no forwards tilt. But, everyone says, forwards tilt can be obtained by dropping the bed and tilting the front standard less than all the way back. This is true but there's a catch. It works for only a limited range of focal lengths at a limited range of focused distances. Much extension needed to focus? The film plane will be outside the lens coverage because of the limited rise. And it isn't there at all for lenses that focus to the desired distance while the front standard is on the inner bed rails.

Thanks for the info, I'll look into the 2x3 Graphic. Nice pictures wombat2go, was the second a 6x12? The aspect ratio is interesting. My friend uses a 4x5, which was quite nice to use, my only complaint being that the rangefinder was difficult to see as I wear glasses. The reason I became interested in Horseman is because I've read that the 970/980/985's viewfinder and rangefinder are easier to see for eyeglass-wearers, plus the eyecups prevent scratching and stray light entering. Any thoughts on the two systems, compared to each other? I figure if I'm going to get this kind of press camera, I might as well get one with useable movements, even if it's just for using them on a small tripod periodically. As you had said Dan, I've heard mixed things about the 2x3 Graflex's movements. I wouldn't use them that often, but I do want to have the option in my back pocket so to speak:

The way I see it, it wouldn't hurt to have optional movements. The Horseman is still half the weight of what I currently have. For the occasional times I'd use them, chances are I'd be in an urban environment; I figure it wouldn't be too difficult to find an appropriate place to set up a tiny tripod/clip like that Ricoh I have or like the one in the above picture.

 

[wombat2go]

was the second a 6x12? The aspect ratio is interesting.

https://app.box.com/s/54y7jm9rgiukizdu36sj51wmp0ozfrf0

I sometimes make a height crop of the 6x7 photos so that a 1:2 ratio is obtained. Look good on the monitor and also makes nice prints.

 

[Paul Howell]

Thanks for the info, I'll look into the 2x3 Graphic. Nice pictures wombat2go, was the second a 6x12? The aspect ratio is interesting. My friend uses a 4x5, which was quite nice to use, my only complaint being that the rangefinder was difficult to see as I wear glasses. The reason I became interested in Horseman is because I've read that the 970/980/985's viewfinder and rangefinder are easier to see for eyeglass-wearers, plus the eyecups prevent scratching and stray light entering. Any thoughts on the two systems, compared to each other? I figure if I'm going to get this kind of press camera, I might as well get one with useable movements, even if it's just for using them on a small tripod periodically. As you had said Dan, I've heard mixed things about the 2x3 Graflex's movements. I wouldn't use them that often, but I do want to have the option in my back pocket so to speak:

The Horseman is a much better camera than a Crown or Speed 2X3, better build, all metal, the Crown is wooden, lighter but not as durable. A Horseman has more movement, I have both a 4X5 Crown and Speed, the Crown has more movement than a Speed, but more limited than a Horseman. The Horseman has cams for different lens, you can change a cam and lens , if you find or make one, on a Crown that has the top mounted rangefinder, but it takes time. I don't know if you can find a Horseman with a lens and backs for under $600.

The other thing to remember is that to use the movements in any press type camera including a Super press 23 you need to have a ground glass back so you can see what you are doing. If you are shooting on the run do have time to swap backs?

I have a Mamiya Universal for going on 30 years, weddings, events, landscapes, larger than a Superpress 23, viewfinder is large, easy to use with glasses, rugged, nice set of lens, but does not have any movement. If I need movement I use a view camera on a tripod.

 

[wombat2go]

the Crown is wooden, lighter but not as durable.

The vintage 1953 2x3 Graflex "Century Graphic" here is of metal and mahoganite.
Mahoganite is like bakelite, a type of thermosetting hard plastic.

https://app.box.com/s/9d6gm8vpss3erpw64u264h4h1nsqhqg0

 

[Paul Howell]

We are both right

From Shutterbug 2007:

The 2x3 Crown (leather-covered mahogany) and Century (bakelite plastic), "baby" versions of their larger format brethren deserve more attention than
Read more at http://www.shutterbug.com/content/2...xpensive-technical-camera#xblxc1FIPKU5W2rG.99.

I don't think I have seen a Century 2X3

 

[Alan Gales]

Two comments.

Shooting handheld with movements is idiotic. Cross off that requirement.

Everyone but me who has a Graphic tells the innocent -- that's the OP -- that the wretched things have usable movements. I've shot 2x3 Graphics for decades. I like them. They're very useful tools, also cheap and cheerful. But movements? Nothing usable.

No rear movements.

At the front, limited rise, not generally usable fall. 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics, including the Century, have 19 mm front rise. Not enough and requires more coverage than original issue normal lenses, including the marsupial's 103 Graftar (much under-rated lens, by my tests the best of the original issue normal lenses), have.

Limited front shift (~ 10 mm) that can be used only when the front standard is in front of the bed struts. Normal lenses for 2x3 make infinity with the front standard inside the struts.

No front swing.

Rear tilt at the front, no forwards tilt. But, everyone says, forwards tilt can be obtained by dropping the bed and tilting the front standard less than all the way back. This is true but there's a catch. It works for only a limited range of focal lengths at a limited range of focused distances. Much extension needed to focus? The film plane will be outside the lens coverage because of the limited rise. And it isn't there at all for lenses that focus to the desired distance while the front standard is on the inner bed rails.

Dan, it's funny that when a newbie asks which camera to buy as their first large format camera that so many recommend a Crown or Speed Graphic. I always recommend a cheap monorail where you have all the movements and they are straight forward to use. How do you learn movements if you don't have any to speak of?

As far as the OP's question I would look at Mamiya 6 or 7, Fuji Rangefinders, or TLR's. If you don't mind 645 then maybe a Pentax or Mamiya with autofocus and full automation. I used to walk around with a Pentax 645Nll with a 75mm FA (autofocus) lens. It was a blast!

 

[Bipin]

I own a few large format lenses which, if I could adapt them to one of these camera systems, would make things more economical for me. My 90mm f/6.8 Angulon would probably be the one I'd get the most use out of. Finding or making a Copal 0 board for a Horseman or Graflex isn't really an issue, but how feasible would it be to properly cam these lenses for either system's rangefinder? Someone else had commented on the matter a little while ago, saying it could be done. Does anyone have first-hand experience with this sort of thing? Likewise, would it be possible to do the same by removing a lens from a Mamiya Press helicoid? Would one option be better over the other, will any of them even work?

 

[wombat2go]

I own a few large format lenses which, if I could adapt them to one of these camera systems, would make things more economical for me.

I did it the other way
I use the Takumar 6x7 lenses on the 4x5 graflex with the RH/8 rollfilm holder.
So the lenses are scale focussed
https://app.box.com/s/08n5grar68b2ywnuny9esj0ll00q0y5g

This is a Computar 105~150mm lens. When set at 135mm, the standard cam works!
https://app.box.com/s/ftfro5plttrrqlz91qfi

But the best lens I have for the Speed in medium format, is the Super Takumar 55mm
https://app.box.com/s/rte9vqs9ub91lfgiyx7cysqpo7a2d8r1

Here is a photo from the Tak55, hand holding the Speed.
https://app.box.com/s/zz9woy21e7vmfydsc3ux
The 55mm is forgiving, being wide angle, it is not touchy to focus or to camera shake

 

[Bipin]

I did it the other way
I use the Takumar 6x7 lenses on the 4x5 graflex with the RH/8 rollfilm holder.
So the lenses are scale focussed
https://app.box.com/s/08n5grar68b2ywnuny9esj0ll00q0y5g

This is a Computar 105~150mm lens. When set at 135mm, the standard cam works!
https://app.box.com/s/ftfro5plttrrqlz91qfi

But the best lens I have for the Speed in medium format, is the Super Takumar 55mm
https://app.box.com/s/rte9vqs9ub91lfgiyx7cysqpo7a2d8r1

Here is a photo from the Tak55, hand holding the Speed.
https://app.box.com/s/zz9woy21e7vmfydsc3ux
The 55mm is forgiving, being wide angle, it is not touchy to focus or to camera shake

Interesting modifications! One of the things I find especially attractive about these types of cameras is how versatile they can be. I also like that shot of the Blue Water Bridge, I go there almost every weekend!

 

[wombat2go]

I also like that shot of the Blue Water Bridge, I go there almost every weekend!

When you set set with your new medium format, we will have to have a walk around there.
I have not taken any on Canada side yet.
Here is the Huron, taken with the year 1936 Nettar on Ektar 100. That camera has a true 6cm by 9 cm frame.
https://app.box.com/s/2vvkg62b2gt3lavig368

 

[Paul Howell]

Another thought, if you are good at zone focus is a Kodak Tourist, 6X9, scale focus, uses 620 film, but you can trim 120 and sand off the top and bottom of the spool to fit, need to find a late model with a 4.5 4 element lens avoid the 6.7 or slower 3 element lens. All metal body, folds up rather nicely. the last model had a top shutter speed of 1/800, very fast for a leaf shutter. No movement, but for travel a nice package.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dan, it's funny that when a newbie asks which camera to buy as their first large format camera that so many recommend a Crown or Speed Graphic. I always recommend a cheap monorail where you have all the movements and they are straight forward to use. How do you learn movements if you don't have any to speak of?

As far as the OP's question I would look at Mamiya 6 or 7, Fuji Rangefinders, or TLR's. If you don't mind 645 then maybe a Pentax or Mamiya with autofocus and full automation. I used to walk around with a Pentax 645Nll with a 75mm FA (autofocus) lens. It was a blast!

Alan, Graphics are cheap and cheerful and will do much that a 4x5 shooter would want to do. Not all, alas. And they can usually be resold with at worst a small loss. So I understand the recommendation.

But you're right that a cheap monorail, e.g., a Calumet CC-40x, is a much better camera for beginners who want to shoot 4x5 and learn how to use movements.

Re the OP's original and subsequent posts, I can't imagine how the person came up with its list of requirements. They're absurd. Your suggestion hits me as a little overkill, but only because 'way back when I shot a couple of events with a pair of Nikkormats, each with a 105/2.5 Nikkor. One for color, the other for b/w. And that was effectively street photography. I used just one and a minimal set of lenses (in the Nikon scheme, 24, 55, 105, 200) for travel photography for years. Simple gear, not that much of it, and no refinements of cruelty.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[Bipin]

I wouldn't say the criteria is absurd. Specific, but not absurd. I'm really just looking for one medium format camera that I can travel lightly with (perhaps I put too much emphasis on street photography, and that's leading to some confusion) which can perform a few basic movements if need be.

When I don't care about movements or don't foresee the need for them, like on short walks around town I have my Autocord, but I'd like something more versatile for longer excursions that I can just stuff in my bag and go. There are lots of excellent suggestions here, and I'm sure I'd be quite happy with many of them (e.g. Mamiya Press, Horseman, Graflex 2x3, Linhof, Hartblei). Like any system though, they all have their pros and cons. I'm just trying to figure out what features are least important; what I should compromise on, and what features may make the camera difficult to use (some viewfinders can be difficult to use with eyeglasses). Of course, cost is also a factor. A 45mm Super Rotator on a M645 or Pentacon Six would be wonderful, but I just don't have that kind of money.

 

[M Carter]

I'm in the "movements and street photography kinda stops being street photography camp"… but then again, I do some pretty oddball stuff when I get a wild hair. Made a tilt lens from a chopped-up Holga to shoot a music video with a DSLR. That sorta thing.

Personally, I'm obsessing over which MF folder to get… mamiya six?? Got a new-gear-jones going on...

 

[Bipin]

I'm in the "movements and street photography kinda stops being street photography camp"… but then again, I do some pretty oddball stuff when I get a wild hair. Made a tilt lens from a chopped-up Holga to shoot a music video with a DSLR. That sorta thing.

Personally, I'm obsessing over which MF folder to get… mamiya six?? Got a new-gear-jones going on...

For a while I was in a more traditional camp with respect to street photography, but I enjoy the challenge of messing around with what is convention, especially if it involves fiddling around with mechanical things. I find Eggleston's and Shore's work particularly interesting which I suppose it fits into a specific niche of street photography. Bottom line, it's fun to experiment. I'm sure you found that with your music video (I can only imagine what that'd look like)!

That Mamiya-Six is certainly an interesting thing with its film-plane focusing. Excellent cameras, no doubt.

 

[macfred]

...
That Mamiya-Six is certainly an interesting thing with its film-plane focusing. Excellent cameras, no doubt.

Just like the 1945-48 British Ensign Commando (a 120 folding coupled-rangefinder). It also focused by movement of the film plane.

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C680.html

 

[M Carter]

I'd never heard of the Ensign Commando - seems really advanced for the time period, not a lot of coupled RF with automated film advance. Yes, I'll take one of those...