Buyers guide to entry medium format

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Hi guys!

Loads of grat stuff in here! Wauw!

Now, my "problem" is, that I have decided to get my self a medium format camera. Im just in awe of this format and te camera options in this field. But what to get?

Im kinda on a budget here so proberly no Hassy's for me, but im thinking perhaps Pentax 645 og Mamiya?

Any one have any suggestions at what to get and what to look after while inspecting one upon purchase?

Thanks guys!

Oliver

keithwms · Apr 1, 2009

Can you borrow from anyone you know?

Given your budget you might look at the mamiya rb67 system if you want 6x7/6x8 format, or the mamiya 645 pro if you are looking for smaller/faster-lens 645 format. The pentax 645N system is also wonderful and not too expensive. My own opinion is that the rb gives the most bang for the buck.

But there are many other systems (which I am sure you will soon hear about in this thread...) and the most painless way to decide is to get your hands on these different systems and try 'em out yourself.

Christopher Walrath · Apr 1, 2009

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I was going to suggest the rb67. I got a body, a 90mm, a waist viewer and two backs for about $300 a month ago on ebay. Check out www.shuttertblade.com and go from there.

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Hi Keith

Thanks for the quick reply!

Im going along the lines of 6x4.5 og 6x6 as i find the faster lenses more usefull in this format.

Ive heard alot of good things about the Pentax 645N and the Mamiya 645 too.

One thing im also considering is a Bronica, but not sure if they are in fact any good? They seem to me to be in an afordable price range too.

Cheers!

Jeff Kubach · Apr 1, 2009

I'll look into the Mamiya RB67, big negative and good prices.

Jeff

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Thank you!

Any thourghts on if it has to be a RB67PRO or PRO S or what?

Pro's and con's?

Thanks

keithwms · Apr 1, 2009

The rub on the bronnies, in my opinion, is that they have been out of production for quite a while and the used market isn't quite so good, consisting mostly of well-used equipment with few options to get mintier stuff. (Consider that with the rb system, you can get brand-spanking-new MC lenses for a song... that's what I am comparing to). Think not only about what you want now and can afford now, but also how you may want your system to grow. That is my advice. I am sure you will hear different advice from others.

Having said all that, I'd certainly not question the bronnie's ability to deliver fine images and you should have them on your list. Lots of fine bronnie gear to consider, I'd merely be concerned about future growth of the system. So... again... I am not dissing bronica, just giving my point of view and relating why I went in a different direction.

P.S. I'd go for an rb67 pro sd if possible. It has some advantages, is the newest model, and the price diff is not large. I have a pro sd and I use those lenses on the rz pro2 as well.

P.P.S. I also worship my mamiya 645 pro, such a cute little box. Like a baby rb. great lenses, very affordable, lots of fun. 645 is significantly bigger than 35mm too. But... I almost never use AF (even with my 645 afd) so if you do want AF then bear that in mind.

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Found this one one eBay, not sure if linking is allowed, but here goes:

http://tinyurl.com/czhfs7

Looks good to me, and they will even ship it to my country! (Denmark)

Any thourghts?

keithwms · Apr 1, 2009

Look at KEH. Compare prices. But that price you found is not unusual for a good, older rb kit. If you can afford $500 then you can do considerably better though, IMHO.

archphoto · Apr 1, 2009

It shure looks good, but this is starting to bid at....
One other thing: it has a 220-film back, so you might want a 120 film back in the future.

Having said that: RB's are great camera's, I've one and love it.

Good luck,
Peter

Travis Nunn · Apr 1, 2009

Christopher Walrath said:
...Check out www.shutterblade.com and go from there... <link fixed>

Shutterblade is located less than 20 miles from where I live. I'd rather buy something from the other side of the world than from them. I've dealt with them twice and have not had a good experience with them either time.

KEH is where I would trust my money, but being that you are in Denmark, ebay might be a better way to go, but check anyway.

Steve Smith · Apr 1, 2009

The RB is great but you have not told us yet how you wish to use it.

I always defend it's ability to be hand held as that is how I use mine all the time. however, if handholding is a requirement the I suggest you find one (with a left hand grip) and handle it first.

If it's going to sit on a tripod all day in a studio then no problem. If you intend to hike for miles with it then the weight is also a consideration.

I have a Pro SD with 50mm, 90mm and 180mm lenses. If I go out carrying it though, I usually only take one lens. If I know I'm not going far, I may take all three.

Steve.

pcooklin · Apr 1, 2009

I have a Bronica ETRSi system and think its great. There's still a load of equipment to be had online from various places, including KEH, all in perfect working order. I would go with KEH if you can. As everything is interchangable, if something does go wrong or gets dropped, you can simply replace it. Thats what I did. I dropped my ETRS and bought another ETRSi for about $90, looks like new.

With regards to Bronnies being old, they're no older than a Hassy and other gear which is still very popular and serviceable. Sure, make sure it's been CLA'd before buying but it wouldnt stop me from buying in to the gear. If you like 6x45, then a Bronica ETR kit would be ideal, if you want 6x6 then perhaps the GS might be an option as you then have all the backs the play with including 6.45 upwards.

Hope that helps.

Christopher Walrath · Apr 1, 2009

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Everyone has their horror stories but I've nbeen dealing w/ shutterblade for over four years with not a single ripple in myt photographic pond.

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Tons of good advice guys, thank you!

Im planning on using it hand held for the most part, but a tripod (or gorillapos as I have seen used some times now) will be with me at most times while using it too. Talking film, what back(s) would you prefer to use? And what film? ISO/ASA speed and so on? Im thinking about using 120mm Fuji Velvia 50 and some Ilford pushed to 1600.. Perhaps a HP5+? Any advise here?

Thanks again for you help guys, ive haven't found any forum yet that provides so usefull and quick information!

winger · Apr 1, 2009

I have a Pentax 645N and love it. I can handhold it pretty easily (and I'm not known for strength). My suggestion is to find some if you can and see which feels good in your hands.

As for film backs, I'd go with 120 as 220 isn't made much anymore. Which film in particular depends on what you want for a result. If you look around here, there are innumerable threads on choosing a film. I haven't completely settled on a favorite, but I do like Acros and also Tmax 100.

Doug9345 · Apr 1, 2009

oliver|PHOTO said:
Found this one one eBay, not sure if linking is allowed, but here goes:

http://tinyurl.com/czhfs7

Looks good to me, and they will even ship it to my country! (Denmark)

Any thourghts?

I don't know what you have for local internet classified ads, but before I saw that you were in Denmark I was going to tell you to watch Craiglist. I bought my from someone on craigslist for $200 about a year ago. It was some college student that had gotten the camera for a class and now was graduating and wanted the money worse that he wanted the camera. The kit included the RB67 body, waist level finder, metered prism finder, 90mm lens, 180mm lens, 120 and 220 backs, a Vivitar doubler, lens hood, number 2 lens extension all in a zero Hallibuton case.

When buying one in the US beaware that the whole camera in a case is heavy. I just went in the garage and weighed my outfit. It weighs 23.58 pounds (10.7 KG). I would think that shipping might be a significant cost depending on how it was packed.
Keh has two outfits on their web site. One with a 180mm lens, waistlevel finder and 120 back is $248. The one with a 90mm lens is $269.

Christopher Walrath · Apr 1, 2009

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When getting film backs make sure your purchse includes the dark sldies. They are available seperately from Adorama or B&H (got two from one or the othern forget already) for around $18 USD per.

fschifano · Apr 1, 2009

Both the Mamiya and Pentax 645 systems are good machines, and your preference for smaller and lighter makes the choice of either of these systems over the Mamiya RB and RZ cameras a no-brainer. Now, before the RB/RZ lovers start jumping all over me, I've got to say that they are real workhorse cameras with great glass and big negatives. I don't own any of these cameras, but I have used them all on a number of occasions. That's one of the benefits of hanging out with friends who do own them. Overall they are capable of delivering a better image quality that their smaller format counterparts, but that better image quality comes at a cost. The RB/RZ cameras are huge, heavy, and slow by comparison. The 645 cameras, in contrast, don't handle much differently than a large 35 mm SLR. The only 6x7 format option that comes close is the Pentax 67. It looks like, and also handles like a giant 35 mm SLR. Unlike the Mamiya RB, RZ, and 645 systems or the Pentax 645 system, there are no interchangeable backs for the Pentax 67.

Austerby · Apr 1, 2009

I had the same idea a couple of years ago and went for an Mamiya 645 Super and it has fully lived up to its name. The lenses are great and now reasonably cheap and there's an extensive range of accessories for all purposes. It's not too big to carry around and handholding is perfectly feasible, even at lowish shutter speeds if you are careful. The images are startling - you're in for a treat if you've never looked at 6x4.5 Velvia 50 negs on a lightbox before!

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

Once again thank you all of you for the great response.

Ive been offered a Mamiya M645J with filters (red, yellow and skylight), 80 mm and a 210 mm apature currently unknown sadly, but what I can see from a picture of it, the 210 mm could be a f/4. Lens shade for both lenses, prism viewfinder and a 120 back.

The whole set seems to bee in a good (nothing more) condition.

What do you reckon this would be worth? (sorry about the apature info missing, know, that that makes it hard to propose a price).

Cheers, Oliver

Edit: Any one know anything about a digital back for this one? I know it's not the forum, but can't hurt to ask.

keithwms · Apr 1, 2009

Again, for pricing, I would refer to KEH. Their prices are very competitive and will give you a good idea of what to expect.

RE: digital back, there are two backs that can go on the mamiya 645 systems, the Zd and the ZDb, priced at about $7000+. They are fairly highly regarded, but newer options are coming out soon so stay tuned on that. Anyway, if you are seriously considering shooting digital as well as film in the near future, then I'd caution you *not* to go for a 645J and instead to pick up a 645 af/d... or afd2 or afd3 ($$$!). The interface with the digital back will be much more robust and convenient. Like I said, I have an afd and Ilike it. It's just a lot bigger and bulkier than the 645 pro.

N.b. I am not suggesting that you go digital, I am saying that if you are thinking of doing that, then you'd better position yourself to be getting lenses and peripherals within a family that will be compatible with that option if and when you do go that way.

Id' say forget digital MF for now, it'll still be there whenever you have the funds for it. Shoot some MF colour slide. Enjoy!

EdColorado · Apr 1, 2009

Something I've found helpful when considering the purchase of a camera model I've never used is to take a good look at the users manual. By reading how the camera functions I've been able to find things that I do or don't like and get a feel for what it will be like to use. You might want to look through some of the user manuals here: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ or here for the 645J in particular: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_m645j/mamiya_m_645j.htm
It looks like the J is a pretty basic camera but from what I've read online it seems to do a pretty good job.

oliver|PHOTO · Apr 1, 2009

EdColorado said:
Something I've found helpful when considering the purchase of a camera model I've never used is to take a good look at the users manual. By reading how the camera functions I've been able to find things that I do or don't like and get a feel for what it will be like to use. You might want to look through some of the user manuals here: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ or here for the 645J in particular: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_m645j/mamiya_m_645j.htm
It looks like the J is a pretty basic camera but from what I've read online it seems to do a pretty good job.

Very cool instructionbook! Im reading through it at the moment.

"It fits so well into one's hands that it becomes an extension of his reflexes"... how cool is that? LOL

Pupfish · Apr 1, 2009

Used values can be easily found by looking at what similar items have recently sold for on eBay using Advanced Search.

Things that drove me from buying a Bronica ETRSi were that the metered AEIII prism was a rare piece (often fetching $250-300 or more used), that it doesn't have an instant return mirror, and that there isn't a super close focus due to the in-lens shutter.

The availability and value of Pentax lenses is better than other 645 systems, the SMC-A 35mm f/3.5 being the major reason I got into MF. Provided you don't need daylight-sync'd fill flash (I don't as I have 35mm and DSLR gear for events), it's hard to pass up the bargain of a Pentax 645N with it gorgeous VF, spot and matrix metering and a 2fps winder built in.

As to the RB67, if I am to shoot something that big and slow and mechanically inconvenient off a tripod, I also want movements (so I got a 4x5 technical field camera as well).

C'mon Ektar!

Buyers guide to entry medium format

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