Butane

Lismoreian · Feb 27, 2010

Would Butane (superser heater) have an affect on developer?

Bob-D659 · Feb 27, 2010

Not really, the output is heat, water vapour and CO2. Now in a room where it depletes the oxygen, and the oxygen depletion monitor in the heater stops working, the carbon monoxide wouldn't be good for you but shouldn't effect your developer.

Edit: I'd guess the low temps in the room will have a big effect. Do you have an accurate thermometer?

Lismoreian · Feb 27, 2010

The darkroom is cold. The developer is at a temp lower than it really should be. I do sit the dev. tray in a bath of 20C to bring it up to temp. this is an ilford multigrade dev. and a multgrad 5k fiber paper. I am not getting black. and i am getting really warm tone almost as if it were Ilford warmtone paper. so i run test strips which look good. I make a print and it looks like i dont know how print. not sharp, nor clean.

Leon · Feb 27, 2010

the warm tone is becuase of under-development. As long as your developer is close enough to 20 degrees, it should be fine. mix some fresh and see what happens. Maybe the dev is exhausted, or you got some stop in there by mistake?

Bob-D659 · Feb 27, 2010

Your dev is probably still cold. It cools off due to evaporation when it's in an open tray. It can easily drop 3C pretty quickly if there is not a lot of volume compared to the surface area. Your water bath would have to be kept warmer than 20C to keep the dev at 20C. In winter I have an electric warming pad under the trays to keep them at 20C, this is with a room temp of 22C.

Lismoreian · Feb 27, 2010

I guess what I am really up against is temperature. Heat borders on luxury here so, i must rely off of Butane for the time being.Or I limit printing to Summer. It is very frustrating trying to acheive 20C without a) spending a furtune and b) gassing myself. I have ventilation but, the space is cement blocks-a refridgerator was warmer this winter. I will look into heat warming trays. IF anyone has a make-shift warming trya device/idea, please pass on. Thank you for you input.

fotch · Feb 27, 2010

This may sound silly but it’s an idea anyway.
How about making a large wood box, say about 24x24x72 inches, preferable insulated or at least the base) with the front opening 48x18 inches and a sliding door 96 inches with a Plexiglas viewing window and two holes for your arms. This sliding door would travel on a top and bottom track and be wider than the box so as you slide from one tray to the next on, part of the sliding door is always closing the opening. Or you could have multiple doors, with the one you use having the window and armholes, and just reposition the doors so the solid doors cover the part you are not using. Have a plug or cover for the arm holes when your arm is not in them so you don’t lose the heat through them.
This box then could have a small electric heat and maintain 20 or 22 C in the box.

Sort of like a changing bag or one of those things you see in the movies where the scientist are handling radio active materiel.
OK, move it to the Joke area if you wish.

polyglot · Feb 28, 2010

I hear that piglet-warming pads (being waterproof and all) are the go for really cold darkrooms.
Edit: anywhere between 20C and 28C is fine for paper development (Ilford Multigrade dev), so don't be afraid to put some nice warm (32C) water under your dev tray.

mike c · Feb 28, 2010

I don't know how big your dark room is ,and if its insulated .The one I have is about 9ft x10ft x9ft and is fully insulated I use a oil fulled electric space heater and it stays around 20 deg C,so the chems also stay that temp,although it rarely gets below 10 degs C here it would be a lot more safer and maybe cheaper to run.

ricksplace · Feb 28, 2010

No electricity? If you can't get a small electric heater to warm you up, you could always consider a small wood burner. Cheaper than a butane heater to run, and you get that wonderful smell of woodsmoke.

youngrichard · Mar 1, 2010

If I remember from chemistry practicals, simple chemical reactions by and large proceed at a speed governed by temperature, so increasing your development time by a factor per degree below 20 degrees should bring you to the right degree of development. Since installing a new efficient boiler my cellar darkroom temperature has dropped from around 20 degrees to 16 degrees and I have arbitritarily increased dev and fix times by 25 per cent. Seems to work. Any chemists out there can help?
Richard

Lismoreian · Mar 1, 2010

The space is not insulated. It really is just a concrete rectangle. I do like the idea of a wood stove. I have tried extending dev. time given the temp but, no go. The thermostat may reach 15C with the Butane. Have decided to keep two containers of dev in a 20C water bath-Jobo-I know! However I am reluctant to process prints in this things because of control-the need to see what going on. Any one process black and white fiber in their temp controlled Jobo?

eli griggs · Mar 1, 2010

How about using aquarium thermostats? They could be used several ways, for instance, instead of placing them directly into the trays, use an over-size tray to set a container of water in one end, with the thermostat heating the water which in turn heats the tray. This has the advantage that you can switch between trays as needed with a single unit, without contaminating your chemistry.

You could also make a sort of floating lid out of sheet foam insulation, with tray-sized openings. Bricks could also be employed as supporting spacers as well. Partially fill your sink, thermostat installed and let a water-jacket keep things warm. You will want to insulate your sink but it would be worth the effort and there are a number of easy to use products out there to do the job with.

You might also consider a large ice-chest for keeping chemistry from cooling off so much that it takes forever for it to come to working temperature. If you use a aquarium thermostat here, again in a jug of water, you should be able to keep things warm as well, though you'd need to compromise the cooler a bit for running the cord through a hole or lid that doesn't quite close tight.

Another option might be to build a 4-5 inch thick, closed section or box directly under your sink,with a light-baffled box lower down and off to one side, where you could keep a 60 watt incandescent bulb or better on to warm the underside of the sink. By having it lower down and well insulated, convection heating of your sinks' underside should be possible. You would most likely need to include a sliding vent cover at the far end of the warming box to assist convection and regulate the heating. A dimmer switch will help too. Just be careful to build the lamp enclosure to avoid an overheating fire hazard.

Eli

fotch · Mar 1, 2010

Is there anyway you can add some insulation over the block? Even 1 inch of Styrofoam (alternates would be fiber board, plywood) would make it easier to heat. Also, heat rises so the ceiling should be insulated with as much as you can afford.

John Koehrer · Mar 1, 2010

I use a torpedo heater for the garage & it uses kerosene fuel, I think that's what you folk call paraffin.
Kerosene heaters come in a variety of sizes. the torpedo has a fan that moves a lot of air, but there are units that are about 18-24" tall X 10-12" diameter without a fan that work very well. Usually they have handles to move them around with & are not heavy. There may be a visible orange glow with them though. It is orange & MAY be safe around paper. Definitely not film.

grahamp · Mar 1, 2010

That mass of cold concrete is going to absorb more heat than any sensible heater will provide. My darkroom is a wooden building with fiberglass insulation inside the waterproof liner and plywood for the internal walls and ceiling. Admittedly it does not get as cold here, but I can maintain the temperature at process level with intermittent use of a 1KW oil-filled radiator.

Even a basic air gap (battens and plastic sheet) will help. The only drafts should be from your extraction system. If you have a single inlet for air, try warming that.

Lismoreian · Mar 2, 2010

eli griggs said:
How about using aquarium thermostats? They could be used several ways, for instance, instead of placing them directly into the trays, use an over-size tray to set a container of water in one end, with the thermostat heating the water which in turn heats the tray. This has the advantage that you can switch between trays as needed with a single unit, without contaminating your chemistry.

You could also make a sort of floating lid out of sheet foam insulation, with tray-sized openings. Bricks could also be employed as supporting spacers as well. Partially fill your sink, thermostat installed and let a water-jacket keep things warm. You will want to insulate your sink but it would be worth the effort and there are a number of easy to use products out there to do the job with.

You might also consider a large ice-chest for keeping chemistry from cooling off so much that it takes forever for it to come to working temperature. If you use a aquarium thermostat here, again in a jug of water, you should be able to keep things warm as well, though you'd need to compromise the cooler a bit for running the cord through a hole or lid that doesn't quite close tight.

Another option might be to build a 4-5 inch thick, closed section or box directly under your sink,with a light-baffled box lower down and off to one side, where you could keep a 60 watt incandescent bulb or better on to warm the underside of the sink. By having it lower down and well insulated, convection heating of your sinks' underside should be possible. You would most likely need to include a sliding vent cover at the far end of the warming box to assist convection and regulate the heating. A dimmer switch will help too. Just be careful to build the lamp enclosure to avoid an overheating fire hazard.

Eli

The aquarium heater is the way to go for now, thank you for that! I will have to wait until i am able to insulate the walls, ceiling is insulated. And, when I am able to put in proper heating, all will become more cost effective.

fotch · Mar 2, 2010

Sounds like a plan. Good luck with your project.

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 2, 2010

Being a cheap bastard, I keep the house at 57 in the winter (it's winter, it's supposed to be cold - put on a sweater...). It is often a few degrees cooler in the darkroom.

To keep the tray of print developer warm I use a heating pad, the type sold for 'wet heat' that is nominally waterproof. I insulate the pad from the bench with a double layer of small-bubble bubble-pack, otherwise I end up warming the bench instead of the developer. The pad has 4 heat settings - one of them will keep the developer between 67 and 72. I should probably put in a PID controller with a temperature probe.

This probably isn't a good idea if you keep the tray in a sink - I don't know that I would trust the 'waterproofness' of the pad to that extent.

L Gebhardt · Mar 2, 2010

Switching developers my be the easiest solution. There are formulas for cold working developers. I haven't tried any, but have seen them in the Darkroom Cookbook (not near me now).

Athiril · Mar 2, 2010

surround the developing tank/trays in a water bath in a large enough home made tank + $10 aquarium heater.

benOM · Mar 2, 2010

I use the bottom part of a 205 ltr plastic barrel (free) with a 1Kw Immersion heater element fitted into the side (very cheap), It's big enough to float trays in and bottles of chems and easily goes hot enough for doing colour. I use a fish pond pump to circulate the water to keep it even, It also doubles up as a handy film washer!

Bob_ · Mar 8, 2010

I had similar results in a cold college darkroom some years ago. We gave up that session and no useful prints were made. We all had pullovers and coats on and were still cold.
If my memory is correct metol stops working at about 14C. knocking out half of the developer (I cannot recall what we were using). It slows down rapidly until it stops too.

Robert

travelingman · Mar 10, 2010

youngrichard said:
If I remember from chemistry practicals, simple chemical reactions by and large proceed at a speed governed by temperature, so increasing your development time by a factor per degree below 20 degrees should bring you to the right degree of development. Since installing a new efficient boiler my cellar darkroom temperature has dropped from around 20 degrees to 16 degrees and I have arbitritarily increased dev and fix times by 25 per cent. Seems to work. Any chemists out there can help?
Richard

Correct. The lower the temperature, the slower the particles start to move. Getting into how reactions actually work, the most important factors are how hard/how fast the molecules collide with each other and how often. Reactions between molecules have to collide with each other in a certain way in order to make new solutions. So once the temperature gets to a certain point, the speed is reduced to such a point that the molecules won't collide with enough force, thus no visible reaction occurs.

Basically, thats what happens.I could be partially wrong, please anyone feel free to correct me.

fschifano · Mar 10, 2010

John Koehrer said:
I use a torpedo heater for the garage & it uses kerosene fuel, I think that's what you folk call paraffin.
Kerosene heaters come in a variety of sizes. the torpedo has a fan that moves a lot of air, but there are units that are about 18-24" tall X 10-12" diameter without a fan that work very well. Usually they have handles to move them around with & are not heavy. There may be a visible orange glow with them though. It is orange & MAY be safe around paper. Definitely not film.

No, you don't want to use one of those things. They stink and emit filthy exhaust gasses. You'll get yourself sick or worse running one of those things in a closed room. Spent some time in a garage with one of those thing running once. Had a splitting headache within 15 minutes, and had to get out of there. Freezing my ass off was more comfortable.

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