Burning...height of your hands/tools when you burn.......

CMoore · Aug 17, 2018

In books, i often see that the person's hands are fairly close to the enlarging lens when burning.
Does it "matter".?

1. A lot of enlargers, mine seems to be one of the worst (Beseler45) have a middle rail and other hardware for focusing. If you are one of those Guys/Gals that is good with using your hands.....or whatever.....there is only 3-5 inches of room on that back side. I was constantly bumping the head when trying to hold the burning tool up high.
So i tend to do burning just a few inches from the paper.
Other than it changes the size of the burning Hole/Shape, does it matter where the burn tool is held.?

2. I am reading one of my books..... Wish i knew how to get some pics onto the Forum.....and it is called Black White Photo Print Shop by Larry Bartlett and Jon Tarrant..
The enlarger they use in this book is cantilevered..... WAY out past the center rail. Looks like they have 12" of room, maybe even more before they hit that back rail. Anybody know what enlarger they were using.?
Thank You x2

DREW WILEY · Aug 17, 2018

All depends on how hard or soft you want the edges of the dodge or burn. Gosh I pity anyone with an enlarger column or lens focal length so short that their hand is in close proximity to the lens. Sounds more like a waffle iron !

Pieter12 · Aug 17, 2018

I'm sure you will get plenty of replies on this. Hold the burning card at a reasonable distance from the paper so the edges of the opening are soft. It is a matter of projection. If you want to burn a large area, hold the card closer to the lens. To burn smaller areas, hold the card closer to the paper. Keep the card moving at all times. If the card is really close to the lens, you will have less control over the area you are burning. I also recommend a card that is white on one side and black on the other. Use it with the black side toward the paper (minimizing reflected light) and the white side toward the lens, so you can see the projected image. I usually use a second, smaller card to cover the hole so I can position the opening before I start the burn.

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

My hands dance, both side to side and up and down.
My advice would be to try lots of alternatives and gravitate to what works and feels comfortable. Then use that after it becomes automatic.
Slightly OT anecdote.
There was a period of time when I was away from the darkroom. To get back into the darkroom, I took a night school darkroom course - beginner level, because that was the only one available at a time that worked for me.
When I started printing, people started gathering around watching, including the instructor.
With respect to burning and dodging, I had fallen almost immediately into the rhythms and techniques that had served me well for so long (sort of like riding a bicycle).
Even the instructor asked "why are you taking this course?".
The things that work become automatic.

awty · Aug 17, 2018

I just about always cut masks now, generally using test papers, its far more accurate than a general purpose wand and using hands is just silly.
If you want a tight burn then mask straight onto the paper (I tape the paper to the easel so it wont move) open up the aperture and keep it short, if you need a more feathered edge then cut serrations into the mask, depth depends on how much feathering needed. I will usually stop down if I need to feather and do a long exposure while constantly moving the mask. Same deal if you are using a board with a hole. Mine has a large hole and I tape cards with the appropriate sized hole.
Im always practicing, takes a lot to do a good job.
Oh I also work to fstops. I think is the best way for complicated dodge and burns.

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

awty said:
using hands is just silly.

Them is fighting words!.
I probably agree with this advice to those who are starting out.
But after a few decades of this, I find hands to be the best choice.

CMoore · Aug 17, 2018

Thanks

Pieter12 said:
I'm sure you will get plenty of replies on this. Hold the burning card at a reasonable distance from the paper so the edges of the opening are soft. It is a matter of projection. If you want to burn a large area, hold the card closer to the lens. To burn smaller areas, hold the card closer to the paper. Keep the card moving at all times. If the card is really close to the lens, you will have less control over the area you are burning. I also recommend a card that is white on one side and black on the other. Use it with the black side toward the paper (minimizing reflected light) and the white side toward the lens, so you can see the projected image. I usually use a second, smaller card to cover the hole so I can position the opening before I start the burn.

Very good Info/Explanations.
And that is One Reason i do not use my hands very often.....cardboard with a white side makes it easy for me to see what i am doing.....and where i am doing it.
AND.....Thanks to everybody else of course.!

Anybody recognize the enlarger i am describing in this book.?

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

CMoore said:
Anybody recognize the enlarger i am describing in this book.?

I don't have the book, but I do know that with my Omega D6 the distance between the centre of the light path and the frame of the enlarger is always fairly decent.
That is at least partially due to the angle of the column.
Sometimes, when the scale of the enlargement is small and the lens is fairly short, space for my hands can be tight. Mostly though, the constraints are more vertical than front to back.

Sirius Glass · Aug 17, 2018

I use hands, cut out prints to burn in the sky, wands with shapes and holes, cards, ... but I keep it moving up, down, right, left, towards the enlarger, away, linearly and in curves and circles. Just keep it moving so it does not project a sharp edge in one spot too long. Basically whatever works for that print. The nest print will be different.

awty · Aug 17, 2018

MattKing said:
Them is fighting words!.
I probably agree with this advice to those who are starting out.
But after a few decades of this, I find hands to be the best choice.

Ha! Must of posted your reply while I was still typing, so wasnt aiming at you.....but still never too late to correct bad habits.

White on top is good as long as its opaque, but you still need to look at where the shadow is cast. The further from the centre the more obtuse the shadow.
If you make cut outs for a particular print you can keep them with the print and notes to use later.
Anyways I need to get back to it keep practising, maybe try using my fat hands.

Molli · Aug 17, 2018

CMoore said:
Anybody recognize the enlarger i am describing in this book.?

The enlarger photographed in use is a Leica V35 Focomat. You can just make out the make and model in the photo on page 17 and there's also a labelled diagramme on page 9.
Hope that helps.
Oh, and I generally have my hands closer to the lens than the paper - they're small so it's the only way to block enough light and keep it from spilling over everywhere!

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

FWIW, I make regular use of cards with holes in them, cut-out pieces of prints, head shaped dodging wands and just about anything useful.
Mostly though I use my hands.

CMoore · Aug 17, 2018

Molli said:
The enlarger photographed in use is a Leica V35 Focomat. You can just make out the make and model in the photo on page 17 and there's also a labelled diagramme on page 9.
Hope that helps.
Oh, and I generally have my hands closer to the lens than the paper - they're small so it's the only way to block enough light and keep it from spilling over everywhere!

I guess i didn't look closely enough...Thank You
Was just talking to a teacher today, and i asked if it might be a Leica. He said either that, or some name like Wurts or Murts or Murz.....something like that.

MattKing said:
FWIW, I make regular use of cards with holes in them, cut-out pieces of prints, head shaped dodging wands and just about anything useful.
Mostly though I use my hands.

Right...Whatever works for the individual.

But using ones hands.....i am still a bit envious. No doubt practice helps, but some guys that i have seen in some videos are like Magicians with just their hands.
My right wrist is fused, and that can make it difficult for me, but even if i was 100% i am not sure i could do what i see some guys accomplishing with just their hands.
In the book i mentioned in my OP, they detail Dodging and Burning of Several Prints. Some of it gets rather complex. The shape and size of the burns are remarkable considering it is all with their hands up at the lens. I mean, there is no reference like there is with a big piece of cardboard down low. You cannot really see anything on your hands.
It's rather impressive, at least to me anyway.

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

CMoore said:
My right wrist is fused, and that can make it difficult for me, but even if i was 100% i am not sure i could do what i see some guys accomplishing with just their hands.

I have cerebral palsy which affects the range of motion, strength and dexterity of my right hand and arm.
Just use your hands together. In particular, use the gap between your two hands as an "aperture", and the outside edge of your stronger hand (in particular) to cast the appropriate shadow. The aperture is a flexible burning tube, and the edge of your hands are remarkably adaptable.
Ever made shadow puppets on a wall, using your hands to form the shadow? It is the same technique.

MattKing · Aug 17, 2018

CMoore said:
You cannot really see anything on your hands.

I usually look at the image (and shadow) on the paper. I only look at the image on the dodging tool when I am using a cut piece of a print as a masking/dodging tool.

Bill Burk · Aug 18, 2018

I just did a print of Yosemite's Three Brothers... guess how I dodged them. Fingers were designed for the task.

Pieter12 · Aug 18, 2018

We seem to have wandered here...the subject of the thread and the OP's question is about burning with hands...hands and fingers work really well for dodging, less so for burning.

Lachlan Young · Aug 18, 2018

CMoore said:
I guess i didn't look closely enough...Thank You
Was just talking to a teacher today, and i asked if it might be a Leica. He said either that, or some name like Wurts or Murts or Murz.....something like that.

Right...Whatever works for the individual.

But using ones hands.....i am still a bit envious. No doubt practice helps, but some guys that i have seen in some videos are like Magicians with just their hands.
My right wrist is fused, and that can make it difficult for me, but even if i was 100% i am not sure i could do what i see some guys accomplishing with just their hands.
In the book i mentioned in my OP, they detail Dodging and Burning of Several Prints. Some of it gets rather complex. The shape and size of the burns are remarkable considering it is all with their hands up at the lens. I mean, there is no reference like there is with a big piece of cardboard down low. You cannot really see anything on your hands.
It's rather impressive, at least to me anyway.

Very definitely a Leitz V35. The big Dursts & the DeVere enlargers aren't too bad for avoiding hitting things during printing, but the main thing is keeping your dodge & burn tools/ hands moving. Main reason for starting nearer the lens is that you don't have to move your hands as much to ensure you cover the lens at the start/ end of the dodge/ burn. Using hands for burning in is easy with practice & makes a huge difference in speed and flexibility. Learning to print to a metronome also aids multiple dodges & burns as you can concentrate on what your hands are doing & not be looking at the timer. It should be obvious what's going on on the baseboard, unless you are using a blue filter in the enlarger - if you are, switch off your safelights & you'll see much more clearly what's happening - which is why the Ilford MG500 unit switches off the safelights during exposure. The main reason for using hands rather than bits of cardboard is speed & adaptability that lets you get more prints out the door. Boards are much more useful for big burn-ins on larger prints, but even then, post-flash has its uses too.

Sal Santamaura · Aug 18, 2018

CMoore said:
In books, i often see that the person's hands are fairly close to the enlarging lens when burning.
Does it "matter".?...Other than it changes the size of the burning Hole/Shape, does it matter where the burn tool is held.?...

Yes. It determines how much of the shadow is penumbra. Closer to the lens, a greater portion of the shadow is soft/feathered. Closer to the paper, the shadow is harder-edged.

CMoore · Aug 18, 2018

Penumbra.....thanks Sal.
Never heard that Term/Word before.......

Bob Carnie · Aug 19, 2018

MattKing said:
Them is fighting words!.
I probably agree with this advice to those who are starting out.
But after a few decades of this, I find hands to be the best choice.

Plus 2 , using hands

CMoore · Aug 19, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Plus 2 , using hands

Hey Bob -
Do you have a video.....or a few minutes of a bigger video...where you demonstrate Burning......How you do it, maybe the different Tools/Ways it can be done.?
Thank You

Bob Carnie · Aug 19, 2018

Not yet , I talk about ducks ass and duck bill, and painting the print with water through the hands.
I am going to do a long series on silver prints that are headed to a Museum Show in a few years and on each print selected I will demonstrate, this will take a year though.

Bob

CMoore · Aug 19, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Not yet , I talk about ducks ass and duck bill, and painting the print with water through the hands.
I am going to do a long series on silver prints that are headed to a Museum Show in a few years and on each print selected I will demonstrate, this will take a year though.

Bob

I'll watch your video in a year and see if i have been doing it right for the last 12 months.

canuhead · Aug 19, 2018

hands (fingers etc) are great for dodging AND burning. only thing tough is dodging small areas (ie-faces) which mean I use a wire with the appropriate cardboard shape on the end. as well a foot switch and metronome are godsends for burns and dodges.

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