Bulk Loading

Marvin · Aug 16, 2015

I am using old film cassettes for bulk loading and seems to work ok. I had collected a bag full of old film cassettes from some mini labs and decided to reuse them. I saw this somewhere that you could reuse old cassettes by taping your bulk film to the end of the film left on the old cassettes. This seems to work fine if you but the film ends together and tape them. This might help also if you need to use bulk film in a non DX camera. I found several 100 and 400 ISO cassettes that would work fine for this. I include a picture and the rolls in the background are TMAX 400 36 Exp. Hope this helps anyone trying to save by bulk loading.

Marvin · Aug 16, 2015

Sorry about the upside down pic.

Simon R Galley · Aug 17, 2015

Dear Marvin,

It is MUCH better to use re-loadable cassettes designed for the purpose.

You can do it your way but a few 'be very aware's' though.

1 ) Attaching film to film can build stress and deform inside the cassette so if you must do it do not 'overload' 24's good 36's bad.

2 ) You have a higher risk of the film becoming detached inside the camera, camera wind on mechanisms are very strong, if this happens you should realize it and can retrieve the film in the darkroom.

3 ) You have very little film to presume the film is attached parallel, if its not you can stress the film and the camera mechanisms.

4 ) AND THE MOST IMPORTANT : Like most manufacturers we load 'through the cassette velvet mouth' part of this process involves moving all the velvet to face inward using a tongue during manufacture, the film leader is then 'pulled' back automatically to 'reverse' the velvet. Single use cassettes are just that, you cannot repeat that process, the cassettes themselves are much 'tighter' than re-loadables... so repeated insertion risks scratches at a much higher level than using re-loadables, damaged velvet that can allow light leaks or velvet fibres becoming dislodged.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Xmas · Aug 17, 2015

Shutters can get indigestion on velvet thread or film shards...

And you can buy reusable cassettes - still.

Many cameras had specific cassettes for reloading and daylight,... and darkroom loads were sold pre cut to 36.

Contax II, IIa, Kiev accept each other's cassettes
Nikon F, maybe SP compatible
Nikon F2
Canon LTM VI & P are compatible
FSU LTM with base plate latch grouve are compatible (normally)
Nicca
Leitz Barnacks FILCA or IXMOO except very early
Leitz M IXMOO except M5, Cl, M7, MP - late M6 need baseplate latch replaced

480sparky · Aug 17, 2015

I understand the desire to save a few bucks, but as soon as you've have a roll or two of film utterly ruined by reusing factory cassettes, you've wasted far more money than the cost of reusable cassettes ever would have been.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 17, 2015

Been here, done and gone. Metal reloadable cassettes for now.
If camera needs the code - it is too primitive, IMO.
I had only one Konica-off Road 28 (here is the recent print from it in the gallery). By default it using non-barcode as 100.
With good selection of 100 ISO films it is not a problem, even at low light.

Saganich · Aug 17, 2015

I have been doing this exactly for about 5 years after abandoning re-loadable cassettes because I only got 1 or 2 uses out of them anyway before they became too scratchy or the tops would fall off, they are poorly made in general. I would drop in on a local lab and collect the used cans but over the past 2 years the stock had dwindled to about 1 or 2 cans per week or none at all (how they stay in business I'll never know). I noticed my wife had bricks of color print film in the freezer and since she hasn't shot film for about 10 years I started re-purposing those. Now those are almost gone and I may be forced to purchase re-loadable cassettes again. I'm not happy about that because reusing the old cans was much better IMO.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 17, 2015

I have old "new" metal, Kodak made in Rochester ones. It is possible to find them. Three years, hundreds of rolls. No problems. New used cans not even close to their quality and durability.

Saganich · Aug 17, 2015

I just priced 100' triX at Adorama, $125. Two years ago I purchased 4 at about $75 each if I recall correctly. They sell single roll 36 exp for $6.00. A 100 ft roll gets you at most 18 cassettes, so I think my bulk loading days may be over. Why would a 100 ft roll be less economical than single cassettes?

MattKing · Aug 17, 2015

Saganich said:
I just priced 100' triX at Adorama, $125. Two years ago I purchased 4 at about $75 each if I recall correctly. They sell single roll 36 exp for $6.00. A 100 ft roll gets you at most 18 cassettes, so I think my bulk loading days may be over. Why would a 100 ft roll be less economical than single cassettes?

Volume, volume, volume .......

There are whole threads with discussion about this, and everything from retailer gouging to a vast photographic conspiracy have been blamed.

Most likely, however, it has everything to do with what it costs Eastman Kodak (per roll) to set up, operate and take down the specialized parts of the production line for bulk film, compared with what it costs Eastman Kodak (per roll) to set up, operate and take down the more generalized parts of the production line for the much higher volumes of individual cassettes of film.

There is a very good chance that the cost of the film is the smallest component of Eastman Kodak's costs. Similar to the sort of cost breakdown for Ilford's 120 film, where it costs them more to buy the backing paper than it does to make the film itself.

Ilford has a much smaller, more flexible film coater. The rest of their production facility is probably also smaller and more flexible. Their costs per roll of the film itself is probably higher than Eastman Kodak's but for smaller volumes their total cost of production per roll is probably lower.

I've seen some excellent prices on bulk roll FP4. And a few decent prices on T-Max 100 (see B&H right now - $70.00). Kentmere is very reasonable right now at B&H.

pentaxuser · Aug 17, 2015

Maybe my memory is faulty but in the several threads I have seen on bulk loading this is the first one where the consensus seem to be that re-using a factory cassette and attaching the bulk film to the piece that is left after the mini-lab had developed the original film is likely to lead to problems.

Yes, it is true that the machinery in a mini-lab that cuts the film leaves only about half to three quarters of an inch to which to attach the bulk film but if you have a steady hand this is enough to attach it securely and squarely with decent masking tape. It is the way that Kodak until recently and maybe still attaches film to its factory cassettes

The great thing about factory cassettes is that they are designed to run smoothly and are well enough made to run films at least twice. I hope that Simon Galley would not disagree that his cassettes are well made

If you have access to a mini-lab's stock it will gladly give you its old cassettes that otherwise it dumps.
Attach the bulk film to these carefully with decent masking tape and only use them once and I see no reason why you should have problems

If you use a fully automatic camera that only recognises codes such then you have little choice unless you buy DX codes.

Even better keep all your old factory cassettes and use these. This way you can leave at least an inch out and as you can be sure it has not been damaged in the camera as it has always been your cassette you might be able to use it twice at least

Yes the velvet lip will wear and may pick up dust and grit( less likely) but a post-it note run across the lips should ensure that it is OK.

Like Mark Twain's death the dangers of re-using factory cassettes for bulk loading is, I fear, greatly exaggerated.

pentaxuser

Marvin · Aug 17, 2015

In the original post I meant that it would be good for a DX camera that would not accept manual ISO. One of the safeguards that I was going to do to keep down problems would be to use one of my cameras that would not pull on the end of the end of the film. My Nikon N80 pulls on the film at the end of the roll to trip rewind. With the N80 just stop at 36exp and rewind, and with the Minolta X700 the wind and rewind can be controlled manually. I have a good supply of re loadable cassettes, but just hoped to get some use out of these old cassettes. I prefer the metal snap cap cassettes, and I know many prefer the plastic ones. In the past some of the film manufacturers used snap cap cassettes that could be reused. I am not sure whether reloadable DX cassettes are still available. I will post if this has problems or everything goes smoothly.
Marvin

cmacd123 · Aug 17, 2015

The only reloadable cassettes that appear to be in continuous production are the plastic ones with the Screw ends (original ADOX style)

Up until recently Freestyle and others sold metal DX coded Cassettes in ISO 100 and 400, that were similar in construction to the reusable ones that Agfa and Illford used in the 1970 era. The last few packs of these I received were not 100% straight and so the caps were not as secure as I would like. They are now apparently discontinued {The not straight may very well have been the tooling finally wearing out at the factory.)

As far as needing the DX coding, all the Canon EOS cameras become insecure and flash indicators if they cannot read the code on the cassette. I am not sure what I will do when my current stock of the Agfa/Ilford style reloadable units wears out. I do find it much easier to use my AP tool to yank the end caps off the non-resuable cassettes to extract the film. Prying the cap from the same end as the spool protrudes makes it easy to spin the spool to keep the roll tightly wound as it comes out of the cassette.

Unfortunately anyone going into the business of making cassettes would likely have a tooling cost of even more than the half million dollars illford reported spending to bring non-resuable cassette production in house.

Marvin · Aug 17, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Maybe my memory is faulty but in the several threads I have seen on bulk loading this is the first one where the consensus seem to be that re-using a factory cassette and attaching the bulk film to the piece that is left after the mini-lab had developed the original film is likely to lead to problems.

Yes, it is true that the machinery in a mini-lab that cuts the film leaves only about half to three quarters of an inch to which to attach the bulk film but if you have a steady hand this is enough to attach it securely and squarely with decent masking tape. It is the way that Kodak until recently and maybe still attaches film to its factory cassettes

The great thing about factory cassettes is that they are designed to run smoothly and are well enough made to run films at least twice. I hope that Simon Galley would not disagree that his cassettes are well made

If you have access to a mini-lab's stock it will gladly give you its old cassettes that otherwise it dumps.
Attach the bulk film to these carefully with decent masking tape and only use them once and I see no reason why you should have problems

If you use a fully automatic camera that only recognises codes such then you have little choice unless you buy DX codes.

Even better keep all your old factory cassettes and use these. This way you can leave at least an inch out and as you can be sure it has not been damaged in the camera as it has always been your cassette you might be able to use it twice at least

Yes the velvet lip will wear and may pick up dust and grit( less likely) but a post-it note run across the lips should ensure that it is OK.

Like Mark Twain's death the dangers of re-using factory cassettes for bulk loading is, I fear, greatly exaggerated.

pentaxuser

Thanks for the input pentaxuser, and I have a good supply of factory loaded film that I will try to use the cassettes from. There is a Arisa 100 roll in the pic that I processed myself and saved. I used the clear tape in the pic and made it long enough to wrap around to the other side. I am afraid the mini labs have about gone by the way, so don't think I will have a future supply. I stocked up on HP5 when Ilford had a sale 3 for the price of 2 sometime ago. Just trying to make my film resources go as far as they will. I have to go and put this water bottle in the recycle bin.

Xmas · Aug 17, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Maybe my memory is faulty but in the several threads I have seen on bulk loading this is the first one where the consensus seem to be that re-using a factory cassette and attaching the bulk film to the piece that is left after the mini-lab had developed the original film is likely to lead to problems.

Yes, it is true that the machinery in a mini-lab that cuts the film leaves only about half to three quarters of an inch to which to attach the bulk film but if you have a steady hand this is enough to attach it securely and squarely with decent masking tape. It is the way that Kodak until recently and maybe still attaches film to its factory cassettes

The great thing about factory cassettes is that they are designed to run smoothly and are well enough made to run films at least twice. I hope that Simon Galley would not disagree that his cassettes are well made

If you have access to a mini-lab's stock it will gladly give you its old cassettes that otherwise it dumps.
Attach the bulk film to these carefully with decent masking tape and only use them once and I see no reason why you should have problems

If you use a fully automatic camera that only recognises codes such then you have little choice unless you buy DX codes.

Even better keep all your old factory cassettes and use these. This way you can leave at least an inch out and as you can be sure it has not been damaged in the camera as it has always been your cassette you might be able to use it twice at least

Yes the velvet lip will wear and may pick up dust and grit( less likely) but a post-it note run across the lips should ensure that it is OK.

Like Mark Twain's death the dangers of re-using factory cassettes for bulk loading is, I fear, greatly exaggerated.

pentaxuser

All my chums except for me use minilab cassettes they are free so you only need to re-use them once.

Web gossip - porkies

Marvin · Sep 6, 2015

Freestyle now has metal reloadable cassettes in stock. That is the ones that I like best.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 6, 2015

I have reloaded factory cassettes. However it does make a difference what adhesive tape you use. Some like masking tape have too little stickiness. It is also a good idea to put tape on both sides of the film. If the film should come loose in the camera then you have a problem.

Marvin · Sep 8, 2015

I just used the tape in the pic, and it was just store brand scotch tape. It had a good stick to it and I raped it around the film for a good hold. Beware that some masking tapes use for painting have low stickiness for easy removal. So far good results, but thinking about ordering a 25 pack of those metal cassettes.

Xmas · Sep 8, 2015

Lots of cameras had non velvet reloadable cassettes...
Nikon S, F, F2, Leica LTM, some M, later canon LTM, Nicca, Contax Rfdr & SLR, FSU Kiev, and most LTM, etc.,...
Film used to be packaged as daylight or darkroom loading,...

Noel

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