Bulk Film Reels

R W Penn · Dec 11, 2008

Why bulk load. Arista premium costs $1.99 for 36exp. you get new cartage clean felt no problems with tape etc. So I gave up bulk loads. Hope freestyle comes out with 120 size soon.

wogster · Dec 11, 2008

R W Penn said:
Why bulk load. Arista premium costs $1.99 for 36exp. you get new cartage clean felt no problems with tape etc. So I gave up bulk loads. Hope freestyle comes out with 120 size soon.

That's fine if you ALWAYS want a 24 or 36 exposure roll, however bulk loading means that if you want a 6 or 12 exposure roll that is also possible, in fact anything from 1 to 36 exposures is possible, and you don't have to then burn up 30 exposures on the cat to use up the roll before processing. Yes I know you can wind off a few exposures and then put the camera in a changing bag, and then snip off the end and make a new leader, but that's probably more work, then to just make a few 6,12 and 18 exposure rolls, from a bulk load.

patrickjames · Dec 11, 2008

I use gaffer's tape for blackand white since it can be reused ad infinitum, and scotch tape for color so the labs machines don't get messed up. I think I need some of that Blue Max tape.

cloudhands · Dec 11, 2008

Forgive me as I am a newbie both to APUG and photography in general.
I'm considering bulk loading, mainly because I am not that prolific a shooter and would like to do 12 or 14 exposure bulk loads, as discussed before in this thread.

Additionally, isn't it possible to load more than 36 exposures? That would cut down on the waste from the "leader" and you would get more bang for your buck. I wonder what the savings would be if you loaded the refillable cartridges to max. capacity...

Konical · Dec 11, 2008

Good Evening, Cloudhands,

It is possible to load a few more than 36 exposures into a cassette, but it's not usually advisable. 1--Winding additional film may cause damage because of the tightness and having the film subjected to too much friction. 2--More than 36 exposures will not fit on developing reels anyway. 3--How often would having to change film after every 36 exposures really be a problem? Should it be, you need one of the large magazines which were (are?) available for a few cameras (Nikon, Olympus, I think).

Konical

ron110n · Dec 11, 2008

cloudhands,
I think the saving will remain the same, but only your convenience and flexibility will improve. I load like 45 frames, although I had issues with my Leica M6 when it got too fat and I had difficulty pulling the cassette out since a part of the "recycled" film tin casing jammed in the body and I was in a train in Spain. I got it out easy after a vendor climbed aboard selling folding knives. A plastic Kalt film Cassette might be better.

What I mean by recycled film cassette, you can utilize used film cassette "other than kodak". I find it hard to return the lid on used kodak film cassette. I get it free at any 1hr PhotoShop. They'll hand you the trash can. =)

fschifano · Dec 11, 2008

Not too many more than 36. Forty is about the practical limit, though I'm sure someone will chime in with a larger number. To be fair, there probably are a few films, not commonly available, on a very thin support which would allow a longer length to fit in a cassette. With the stuff that most of us use, those cassettes are getting pretty tightly packed at around 40 frames. Pack the film in there too tightly and you're asking for trouble with scratched film and/or jammed up cameras. And this is where the fun starts. Assuming you blow past those potential problems, how do you process the extra long film? If you look around, you might find a tank and reel large enough to accomodate the extra length. These are rare, and will be expensive if you can find one. More than 40 exposures don't fit in the standard 35 mm reel, plastic or stainless. Minilabs, of course won't have that problem since they don't use reels, but good luck finding one willing to accept bulk loaded film. They have no assurance that whatever is in that cassette is really what you say it is, and the wrong film in the wrong chemistry will cause them a headache.

bobwysiwyg · Dec 11, 2008

I'm with wogster. I will readily admit it is more my impatience than anything. I'll frequently think of a particular place, or subject to shoot, load 10-12 frames and I can develop and see the outcome sooner. The alternative is wait and use the remaining frames for a standard roll, or just burn them up to finish the roll.

Did I mention I'm impatient.

jim appleyard · Dec 11, 2008

R W Penn said:
Why bulk load. Arista premium costs $1.99 for 36exp. you get new cartage clean felt no problems with tape etc. So I gave up bulk loads. Hope freestyle comes out with 120 size soon.

One reason would be to use the 250 or 750 frame back made for the Nikon F2. While not quite the same type of bulk loading as most of us are discussing here, it is still a reason to buy bulk rolls.

wogster · Dec 11, 2008

bobwysiwyg said:
I'm with wogster. I will readily admit it is more my impatience than anything. I'll frequently think of a particular place, or subject to shoot, load 10-12 frames and I can develop and see the outcome sooner. The alternative is wait and use the remaining frames for a standard roll, or just burn them up to finish the roll.

Did I mention I'm impatient.

For me it's not usually my impatience, it's others, with most people shooting d*****l these days they expect to see results instantly, or at least within a day or two, if you shoot (film) infrequently, then this means that film can live in the camera for weeks or even months, people are not willing to wait that long, short roll, take out,. process, scan and get photos online within 48 hours, as quick as my d*****l workflow....

michaelbsc · Dec 12, 2008

bobwysiwyg said:
I'm with wogster. I will readily admit it is more my impatience than anything. I'll frequently think of a particular place, or subject to shoot, load 10-12 frames and I can develop and see the outcome sooner. The alternative is wait and use the remaining frames for a standard roll, or just burn them up to finish the roll.

At $1.99 I don't have too much trouble just rewinding the film into the cassette and accepting the loss of the rest of that roll. Not that I have money to burn, but if I shoot 16 exposures and really want them developed, I figure it's a loss equal to half a cup of coffee a Dunkin Donuts. Goodness knows I've poured out more than a few half empty cups of coffee.

If, however, I went through 10-12 rolls a week like some folks I know, I might rethink this. There is a point where wasted film costs would become more valuable than my labor to reload cassettes, but for my shooting habits that's far enough down the road I don't even think about it. I screw up way more money on paper in the darkroom trying to "get-it-right" than I do film.

MB

michaelbsc · Dec 12, 2008

R W Penn said:
Why bulk load. Arista premium costs $1.99 for 36exp. you get new cartage clean felt no problems with tape etc. So I gave up bulk loads. Hope freestyle comes out with 120 size soon.

When they first released the Premium line I wrote and asked them about 120, and they said it all depends on market response to the film. If there is sufficient market demand for the 135, then they can and will get 120 size from the manufacturer. I ordered a bunch of 135-36 to create my share of market demand. I haven't asked them about 120 again, yet.

So, my guess is that merely asking about 120 will get us very little, but asking about 120 at the same time as buying a few bricks of 135 will get attention.

MB

jim appleyard · Dec 12, 2008

Arista Premium surely is a good buy, but the are other films on the market, E6, Portra, Pan-F, etc. These are all other good reasons to go bulk.

Martin Reed · Dec 12, 2008

Konical said:
....It is possible to load a few more than 36 exposures into a cassette, but it's not usually advisable. .......More than 36 exposures will not fit on developing reels anyway. 3--How often would having to change film after every 36 exposures really be a problem?.....
Konical

There are some technical films on thin polyester base which will allow considerably more than 36 exposures to be wound into a cassette. Does anyone remember Ilford's 'Autowind' version of HP5, 72 exposures in a cassette?

Ilford did a special 72 exposure tank & reel for it, there are still some around. The film curled like a watchspring & exposure counters only go up to 36, so it died an almost instantaneous death despite heavy marketing.

Maybe we could start another thread, Christmas Turkeys, which could include Nimslo & similar lead balloon products.

Ian Grant · Dec 12, 2008

Ilford told us on the last factory visit that the 72ex film could potentially cause serious damage if there was problem with the camera as it didn't break, sprocket hole didn't strip, the base was too strong. There must have been some damaged camera's. They won't use that base for 35mm film again because of this, and said it was unwise to use films from elsewhere on the same base.

Most of the 72 exp tanks/reels were sold as remaindered stock I saw plenty but they always just sat there, I remember the film but never saw any on a shelf anywhere.

Ian

SilverGlow · Dec 12, 2008

R W Penn said:
Why bulk load. Arista premium costs $1.99 for 36exp. you get new cartage clean felt no problems with tape etc. So I gave up bulk loads. Hope freestyle comes out with 120 size soon.

The bulk Arista comes out to 50 cents cheaper per roll. That's a savings of 25%, which is no small savings if one shoots a lot.

Martin Reed · Dec 12, 2008

Ian Grant said:
.......Most of the 72 exp tanks/reels were sold as remaindered stock I saw plenty but they always just sat there, I remember the film but never saw any on a shelf anywhere.
Ian

I think there was some problem with Ilford's order for the tanks & reels to the tune of 2 decimal points, there were literally tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of them made. One dealer I know sold a lot of them to an Indian restaurant who used them as serving dishes. There are still a lot lurking around in dealers now

Larry Bullis · Dec 12, 2008

More than 36 frames? Not for me. 36 is one too many already, because 35 fit on an 8x10 contact sheet. We used to print 36 frames on 8-12x11 paper, but it was hard to find even in 1980. Now? Haven't looked. It was a neat system because I could imprint my business card in a perfect vacant space. If I get 36 frames, it's a real pain. I have to find an image that is no good, for sure no good, and hope it falls on a five frame boundary, or better yet, at the beginning or end of the roll. With bulk load, I can stop at 34. Then I'm more sure of being ok. Even with factory loads, I intentionally "waste" a couple frames as insurance.

Numbers: I don't know if anyone here cares about frame numbers, but for me, they are very important, because I need all the help I can get to organize things. I use a "job-roll-frame" format for filing. Bulk rolls (at least the ones I've been using lately, fp4) go from 1 to (I think) 43, then skip a frame, beginning again at 1. I don't mind that a roll may start somewhere in the middle, but I need to use some sort of symbol for the missing numbered frame. I apply that in india ink with a fine Rapidograph pen. Eastman cine film, which I like a lot, has no numbers - imagine frame numbers in a movie. I number each frame prior to cutting the roll into strips.

Tape: Generally, I prefer good quality masking tape, but if necessary, I'll use what is available. The most important thing is to be sure the tape is long enough to go all the way around the spool, giving an inch or so taping both sides. I want to check out Blue Max. Sounds great.

Cassettes: I have hundreds of them that go back to prior to WWII, but if you need cassettes now, they are hard to find because most mfr's crimp their tops. Using a churchkey or other opener damages them, and they won't fit on right even if you get lucky. EFKE films are packaged in reusable cassettes. Just remember to pop the caps by slamming down on the table. Don't grab the churchkey!

Leader: You don't need to cut a curve. A straight cut is just fine.

Loading: A friend of mine who shoots multiple rolls every day only opens the loader, removes a cassette and installs the next, in the darkroom. He does not like to lose the last frame. Who knows? It might be the best one.

I load 70mm also. I just wish they still made 70mm film!

wogster · Dec 12, 2008

bowzart said:
More than 36 frames? Not for me. 36 is one too many already, because 35 fit on an 8x10 contact sheet. We used to print 36 frames on 8-12x11 paper, but it was hard to find even in 1980. Now? Haven't looked. It was a neat system because I could imprint my business card in a perfect vacant space. If I get 36 frames, it's a real pain. I have to find an image that is no good, for sure no good, and hope it falls on a five frame boundary, or better yet, at the beginning or end of the roll. With bulk load, I can stop at 34. Then I'm more sure of being ok. Even with factory loads, I intentionally "waste" a couple frames as insurance.

Numbers: I don't know if anyone here cares about frame numbers, but for me, they are very important, because I need all the help I can get to organize things. I use a "job-roll-frame" format for filing. Bulk rolls (at least the ones I've been using lately, fp4) go from 1 to (I think) 43, then skip a frame, beginning again at 1. I don't mind that a roll may start somewhere in the middle, but I need to use some sort of symbol for the missing numbered frame. I apply that in india ink with a fine Rapidograph pen. Eastman cine film, which I like a lot, has no numbers - imagine frame numbers in a movie. I number each frame prior to cutting the roll into strips.

Tape: Generally, I prefer good quality masking tape, but if necessary, I'll use what is available. The most important thing is to be sure the tape is long enough to go all the way around the spool, giving an inch or so taping both sides. I want to check out Blue Max. Sounds great.

Cassettes: I have hundreds of them that go back to prior to WWII, but if you need cassettes now, they are hard to find because most mfr's crimp their tops. Using a churchkey or other opener damages them, and they won't fit on right even if you get lucky. EFKE films are packaged in reusable cassettes. Just remember to pop the caps by slamming down on the table. Don't grab the churchkey!

Leader: You don't need to cut a curve. A straight cut is just fine.

Loading: A friend of mine who shoots multiple rolls every day only opens the loader, removes a cassette and installs the next, in the darkroom. He does not like to lose the last frame. Who knows? It might be the best one.

I load 70mm also. I just wish they still made 70mm film!

I also give every frame a number, problem is there are 4 different frame numbering systems I used over the years: frame, roll, year (2 digits each), roll, year, frame, and year, roll, frame (currently in use). I am renumbering negative sheets to follow the current system, as I scan the old stuff. The tricky part will be transparencies which have their own numbering system, because each slide stands on it's own, need to relabel those as well, may use the scan number..... Scans have their own numbers, but the comment field on scans from negatives have the roll number in them.....

However there are tons of old prints that have old numbers on them, I just need to remember that some of the numbers don't mean anything anymore....

I thought movie film had frame numbers, but they aren't every frame, they use them for editing.

I also use masking tape, one piece on the spool, one piece on the outside of the cassette, one on the outside of the film can. They used to have screw top plastic ones, I need to find a bunch of those again......

Larry Bullis · Dec 12, 2008

wogster said:
... film can. They used to have screw top plastic ones, I need to find a bunch of those again......

I like the older metal ones, but they are hard to come by.

wogster · Dec 12, 2008

bowzart said:
I like the older metal ones, but they are hard to come by.

I have some of the metal ones, unfortunately the ends sometimes go on really easily, and sometimes they don't. Never had a problem with the plastic ones, but I haven't seen them lately, they were common in 1982 though.....

michaelbsc · Dec 12, 2008

SilverGlow said:
The bulk Arista comes out to 50 cents cheaper per roll. That's a savings of 25%, which is no small savings if one shoots a lot.

I see your point, but you must shoot a lot more 135 film than I do. That's $2-3 dollars a month savings to me, for a lot more trouble and risk of screwing up the film. I can't remember who it was that said they load the whole bulk roll at one sitting, but I might could see doing that it I shot a lot more film.

What I want is high quality 8X10 multigrade RC paper for a nickle a sheet.

jim appleyard · Dec 12, 2008

michaelbsc said:
I see your point, but you must shoot a lot more 135 film than I do. That's $2-3 dollars a month savings to me, for a lot more trouble and risk of screwing up the film. I can't remember who it was that said they load the whole bulk roll at one sitting, but I might could see doing that it I shot a lot more film.

What I want is high quality 8X10 multigrade RC paper for a nickle a sheet.

Perhaps it was me! I usually do the whole roll and then put the cassettes in the film cans and then into the freezer (all carefully labeled, of course). Isn't it what they have commercials on TV for, so people like us can bulk load?

trexx · Dec 13, 2008

michaelbsc said:
What I want is high quality 8X10 multigrade RC paper for a nickle a sheet.

Freestyle sells their brand for 3.54 cents a sheet when buying a thousand, under a hundred dollars for 250 sheets. It is all I use in the way of RC paper.

aparat · Dec 13, 2008

Film leader retrieval?

I think this is related so I don't want to start a new thread. What is the best way to get the film leader out of a cassette? There are a few different gadgets on the market, but which one of those really works?

Bulk Film Reels

R W Penn

wogster

patrickjames

cloudhands

Konical

ron110n

fschifano

bobwysiwyg

jim appleyard

wogster

michaelbsc

michaelbsc

jim appleyard

Martin Reed

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Ian Grant

SilverGlow

Martin Reed

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Larry Bullis

wogster

Larry Bullis

wogster

michaelbsc

jim appleyard

trexx

aparat

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