Bulk film: more likely to destroy shutters?

rippo · Apr 30, 2012

I was shooting a wedding yesterday (yes, on film!) and my Nikon F100 bit off more film than it could chew. A broken fragment of film got caught in the shutter. I was able to free the piece of film when I got home, but the shutter blade is bent. Probably it's now a paperweight.

I was shooting bulk-load XP2 at the time. I've never had problems before with bulk load film, but admittedly when I do use it, it's on manual-wind cameras. Is bulk film more likely to blow up the shutter of a motor-drive camera? Is it more likely to have chunks break off? Or was this just a fluke? I like saving $2 per roll, but not if it costs me $200 to replace a body.

Thanks!

Steve Smith · Apr 30, 2012

Just a coincidence I expect.

Does the shutter still work? If it is bent it can probably be bent back into shape again.

Steve.

ChipMcD · Apr 30, 2012

I ran many hundred feet of bulk TMY through my old Nikon 8008 with nary a problem. I had a piece of film break off in my Leica IIIf, but thankfully it did not touch the shutter and no harm was done.

Like a poster north of here said, it's probably just a longshot accident.

markbarendt · Apr 30, 2012

I use bulk in an F100 and several N90s cameras and never had an issue.

rippo · Apr 30, 2012

Once I freed the film, I was able to put back the blade in place. It curves away from the other blades toward the film plane, with perhaps a quarter of a millimeter of gap. The shutter does work, strangely enough. I've fired it about twenty times and it hasn't jammed. But now I don't trust it.

When I load bulk film, I cut the leader with a scissors. I haven't noticed this before, but the cut leaves little breaks or tears around the curve I cut in it. Is there a better way to do that? I'm just wondering if a part of the leader from one roll broke off, later to jam (the roll that was in there didn't have any problems).

bobwysiwyg · Apr 30, 2012

I load bulk and gave up on cutting that curved tail, if I'm reading your correctly. Sometimes, you may not notice it, but when cutting you could release a small chip of film that then adheres to the film (static charge?) only to release itself in the camera someplace.

markbarendt · Apr 30, 2012

I do try to take care when cutting, avoiding hanging chads.

rippo · Apr 30, 2012

I blame "chad" for all this!

Bob, are you saying I don't need to cut the curved end? Will a straight cut feed into a motor-drive camera? I could see where the narrow end might be necessary for a manual-wind camera. Never even thought of that.

Ian Grant · Apr 30, 2012

Over the years I used many 100's of bulk loads of film with no problem both E6 Fujichrome (and E4) and B&W and with power winders as well. It sounds more like a camera problem in your case, films don't fail.

If it had been a Maco/Rollei film on polyester base then the drive mechanism would be a write off, Ilford/Kodak/Fuji etc won't use that base for camera films.

Ian

rippo · Apr 30, 2012

There was definitely a chunk of film in there, so it was probably something that broke off the leader. That's my guess.

I've answered my own question though: at least for my N90s and I assume my other motor-drive Nikons, I don't need to cut the curved leader. I can just have straight-cut film and it seems to feed just fine. Thanks Bob for that tip!

brucemuir · Apr 30, 2012

The main problem I have noticed is when cutting near a sprocket hole.
If you cut too close or get your cut into a hole it can start/cause a tear in some instances.
I am always careful around those holes. :devil:

In my manual wind bodies I dont bother shaping the rounded end exactly. It doesn't seem to matter.

flatulent1 · Apr 30, 2012

I had a commercial roll of XP2 Super fail at the end of a roll in a Canon EF several months ago. I hit the end of the roll as I wound on, and the film tore before I could remove my thumb from the lever. I've had film separate from the spool when I tried to rewind without pushing in the little film-release button, but never this. Also the only time I've ever had a problem with XP2 Super.

A few months ago I was out on a shoot with a buddy when his recently-acquired F4 stopped working. Couldn't make sense of it until I removed the lens and lifted the mirror... The shutter blades had come untracked on one side and were bowed forward in a way that suggested he wouldn't be using that camera again any time soon. No known reason.

PeteZ8 · Apr 30, 2012

rippo said:
Once I freed the film, I was able to put back the blade in place. It curves away from the other blades toward the film plane, with perhaps a quarter of a millimeter of gap. The shutter does work, strangely enough. I've fired it about twenty times and it hasn't jammed. But now I don't trust it.

...and it probably leaks light anyway.

summicron1 · Apr 30, 2012

you don't need to duplicate the curve of commercial film when cutting the leader -- just cut a straight triangle off so there's a thin enough leader to feed into your takeup spool and you're there.

I've been cutting curves for years, though, never had a cut show up -- work on your scissor technique a bit, maybe take a class up at the local college (scissors 201, the advanced method) -- as to the bulk question, ALL film starts off as bulk before the gnomes load it into those little cans, so that should not be an issue. I've been shooting bulk for 45 years and never had a problem ...

M. Lointain · May 1, 2012

You probably overloaded the cassette with film and the resulting drag made the winder tear the film resulting in a chip. You didn't say how you tape the film otherwise I would have another suggestion or two for you.

I don't round the leaders of my film either. I simply cut a diagonal and call it a day.

As an aside, bulk loading film is fine for personal use but seriously, for professional use just use regular film.

rippo · May 1, 2012

Thanks everyone for chiming in!

Bruce: yeah I always avoid cutting on the sprocket hole.

Flatulent1 and summincron1 (hey are you guys related? ): I've cut many a bulk-roll leader in my day, and I've never noticed the little tears. This is the first time I've used bulk-load XP2 though. It seems to respond differently to cutting. Perhaps it's more brittle? Knowing I can just do a straight cut when using a motor-wind camera means less chance of broken bits.

PeteZ8: yeah that's what I'm worried about. It would definitely let light through, and the mirror isn't going to keep it all out. It is now my "special lo-fi effects" camera most likely.

M. Lointain: I was wondering about overload. I've been clicking to 38 to account for the lost frames at the end, and then putting leader on. One cassette did seem a little tight. You might be right about shooting commercially loaded rolls for pro use. Was just trying to save a buck and the environment etc etc (although I just give up film if that's the case… :0 )

I will always have the bulk-load issue though as I'm also shooting 500T movie film. There's no way around that.

M. Lointain · May 1, 2012

rippo said:
......as I'm also shooting 500T movie film. There's no way around that.

That I would like to hear about. How do you deal with the backing?

rippo · May 1, 2012

M. Lointain said:
That I would like to hear about. How do you deal with the backing?

Short answer: I know a guy

Going off-topic here.

It's been quite a journey trying to shoot 500T, and I don't know if I've got a permanent solution yet. I saw the potential when I bought some film/process/scan package by a company who will remain nameless, but that company imploded and couldn't handle the workload. So I've been searching around because I know two other wedding photographers who shoot the stuff.

One guy processes it by hand in one-shot C41, then wipes the remjet off at the end (or near the end). He works with a lab to do some of the processing work, and they also do the scans. He's offered to do mine as well. I just sent my first rolls to him. I don't know that he's looking to start a business with it though. I'll ask if you're really interested.

Another guy shoots a lot of it and uses Nikon F4s with 250-frame bulk loaders. He then splices several weddings together and sends them to a movie film processing lab. Although it's unclear if he's still doing that, because he's been talking about setting up shop for processing the stuff himself. Probably after this wedding season is over. Sorry to be so unspecific but I don't have much info. He did process a few rolls of mine a few months back.

And then there's a lab in Ohio called Double Exposure Ltd. The guy there has a cine processor, and processes old Seattle Filmworks remjet film. He waits until he as something like 12 rolls in the freezer, then splices them together and does a run (using ECN-2 processing, not C41). I have sent him a couple of test rolls. He's scanning on a Kodak HR 500, which I haven't heard good things about, so it might be a question of process only.

I'm sure this should be a new thread!

Rol_Lei Nut · May 2, 2012

I never found that to be a problem.
The only problem I ever had with self-loaded film was occasional scratches on the film when I wasn't careful about keeping the cassette felts perfectly dust-free.

But then, I very rarely use winders or motors and practically *never* use auto-loading cameras (which I suspect may have played a role).

bsdunek · May 2, 2012

I've had pieces of film break off on factory loaded cassettes too. The film is the same wether you buy 36 exp. rolls or 100 ft. rolls. The advice to make a straight cut is good. I do that except curve the end so I don't split a sproket hole.
Finally, for the value of a good Nikon, send it to Essex or another good repair place and have them fix it. A good camera is worth maintaining, and it may need a CLA anyway. On the other hand, if you're going to discard it, I'll give you my address so you can mail it to me.

rippo · May 2, 2012

bsdunek said:
I've had pieces of film break off on factory loaded cassettes too. The film is the same wether you buy 36 exp. rolls or 100 ft. rolls. The advice to make a straight cut is good. I do that except curve the end so I don't split a sproket hole.
Finally, for the value of a good Nikon, send it to Essex or another good repair place and have them fix it. A good camera is worth maintaining, and it may need a CLA anyway. On the other hand, if you're going to discard it, I'll give you my address so you can mail it to me.

Thanks Bruce. I've emailed Essex about a repair estimate. With the uptick in F100 prices lately (no thanks to Jonathan Canlas), it'd cost me $250-300 to replace the body. A repair might actually be cheaper for once. I did just buy one from a friend a few weeks ago as a back up, so that was good timing.

I did recover the piece of film, and noticed there were no sprocket holes on it. So it's from the middle of the film somewhere. Film just doesn't lose chunks in the middle, so I'm even more sure it was a broken off piece from my leader cut. I've looked at other brands of bulk film I've cut recently, and they don't have the same fractures around the cut area that the Ilford does. So I think it might be that the material they use is more brittle. It doesn't appear to be my cutting ability! Straight cuts in future for all my bulk load film, for sure.

benjiboy · May 2, 2012

I avoid using bulk film in my motor driven cameras, because the auto wind mechanisms work on torque and if you get a film that is tight in the cassette they will either break the film or automatically rewind it into the cassette.

Besk · May 5, 2012

Ian, if it had had a polyester base it most likely would not have broken off in the first place! It is a much stronger base. (Nowadays I use only polyester based films for the archival qualities - that is another subject.)

Ian Grant said:
If it had been a Maco/Rollei film on polyester base then the drive mechanism would be a write off, Ilford/Kodak/Fuji etc won't use that base for camera films.

Ian

Bulk film: more likely to destroy shutters?

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