Bulk ECN-2 powder chemicals (i.e scratch mixing) and storage

Azkaltia · May 12, 2021

Hi all,
quick question as to the 'best option' for storage of powder chemicals:
I have acquired most of what I need for home brew ECN-2. I ordered essentially all the chemicals (and a few substitutes when unavailable - sulfuric acid is dicey) recently. Most are powders, i.e the Sodium brothers (carbonate / bicarbonate / hexametaphosphate / sulfite / sulfate). My previous supplier shipped them in smallish plastic bottles with a double lid (eliminating or at least reducing any air intake). The new batch arrived to my surprise in sealed plastic bags (a form of ziplock re-sealable bag).
Would the knowledgeable photo-chemists of Photrio recommend I leave them in the bags for storage or should I acquire a number of plastic containers to store each powder individually? The aim being to keep the powders in their anhydrous state.
Thanks,
Az

koraks · May 12, 2021

I keep my carbonates, sulfites and hydroxides in plastic tubes and glass jars without further measures against moisture takeup. Works fine.

laingsoft · May 12, 2021

Any sort of sealed container and in the dark should work fine for just about any chemical. Throw in some dessicant packs if you're worried about water, but from my experience I haven't seen any significant changes to the results from things like water absorption from the atmosphere, temperature and making sure you are bang on on weight makes a bigger difference. With the exception if KBr, nothing in color chemistry is significantly hydrophillic that I know off the top of my head. .

Azkaltia · May 12, 2021

Hey thanks for the replies, I'll be ordering a few plastic containers.
Cheers,
Az

cmacd123 · May 12, 2021

glass lets in less air than plastic. (but need more care to avoid impact.) Poly bags are not very air tight.

AgX · May 12, 2021

The non-plus-ultra would be a brown (or dark stored) glass-bottle with respective cap and air substituted by inert gas.

(However the gas then must be applied without making a mess of the powder...)

Azkaltia · May 12, 2021

AgX said:
The non-plus-ultra would be a brown (or dark stored) glass-bottle with respective cap and air substituted by inert, dry gas.

Would say, Tetenal Protectan Spray be an acceptable source of inert, dry gas?

AgX · May 12, 2021

Yes. In the long past it contained inflamable CFC's. After their banning due to atmospheric harm, it contains Propane/Butanes, which as such are inert too.

The latter in their generically sold form include odorizers. One might consider these too. But likely they are practically of no effect either.

Azkaltia · May 12, 2021

AgX said:
Yes. In the long past it contained inflamable CFC's. After their banning due to atmospheric harm, it contains Propane/Butanes, which as such are inert too.

The latter in their generically sold form include odorizers. One might consider these too. But likely they are practically of no effect either.

Sounds good, think I'm all set. Thanks!

koraks · May 13, 2021

Azkaltia said:
Would say, Tetenal Protectan Spray be an acceptable source of inert, dry gas?

Sure. It's also dramatic overkill when storing carbonates etc.

Azkaltia · May 13, 2021

koraks said:
Sure. It's also dramatic overkill when storing carbonates etc.

Makes sense. Also blowing some kind of spray anywhere near the surface of fine powders is going to make a mess...

laingsoft · May 13, 2021

AgX said:
Yes. In the long past it contained inflamable CFC's. After their banning due to atmospheric harm, it contains Propane/Butanes, which as such are inert too.

The latter in their generically sold form include odorizers. One might consider these too. But likely they are practically of no effect either.

I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but a majority of the "canned air" computer dusters are difluroethane, which will do the same thing, but can be picked up for $1 at a dollar store.

Azkaltia · May 13, 2021

In my admittedly limited experience with those canned air dusters, they always come with a bit of quick drying fluid, mostly composed I'm guessing of whichever gas is used. Probably ok for liquid solutions, probably not ideal for dry powders.

AgX · May 13, 2021

laingsoft said:
I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but a majority of the "canned air" computer dusters are difluroethane, which will do the same thing, but can be picked up for $1 at a dollar store.

There are different Difluorethanes, one even is not advised for consumer products oner here. Trans-1,3,3,3-tetrafluoroprop-1-ene is also used here, which then is not truly inert, but sufficient for our uses..
All the these gases have their advantages and disadvantages, so one has to decide on the very application.

laingsoft · May 13, 2021

Azkaltia said:
In my admittedly limited experience with those canned air dusters, they always come with a bit of quick drying fluid, mostly composed I'm guessing of whichever gas is used. Probably ok for liquid solutions, probably not ideal for dry powders.

Yes, the dusters use a compressed refrigerant specifically because they condense into a liquid with only minor pressure, if they were to use only air you would hardly get any gas out of them. The liquid is inert and shouldn't do any harm to a powder.

AgX said:
There are different Difluorethanes, one even is not advised for consumer products oner here. Trans-1,3,3,3-tetrafluoroprop-1-ene is also used here, which then is not truly inert, but sufficient for our uses..
All the these gases have their advantages and disadvantages, so one has to decide on the very application.

That's terrible. I've only ever seen dusters marketed here with 1,1 difluroethane and 1,1,1 trifluroethane, even butane and propane dusters aren't available here because of flammability issues.

Regardless, if you could get a flurocarbon to react with a dry powder, you've either got yourself a very cool paper or you're doing something very wrong.

Azkaltia · May 13, 2021

laingsoft said:
Regardless, if you could get a flurocarbon to react with a dry powder, you've either got yourself a very cool paper or you're doing something very wrong.

Good point. I was thinking not so much about any potential chemical interaction but more the result of pointing the nozzle of a canned gas in the general direction of dry, fine powders. I can only imagine someone has tried that. And regretted it quite rapidly!!

cmacd123 · May 13, 2021

Azkaltia said:
Good point. I was thinking not so much about any potential chemical interaction but more the result of pointing the nozzle of a canned gas in the general direction of dry, fine powders. I can only imagine someone has tried that. And regretted it quite rapidly!!

it is hard enough to pour dry chemicals without raising a dust cloud. Perhaps you could use a piece of filter paper to control the dust.

Bulk ECN-2 powder chemicals (i.e scratch mixing) and storage

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Bulk ECN-2 powder chemicals (i.e scratch mixing) and storage

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