BTZS

Aggie · Apr 7, 2005

For all of those knowledgable photographers, I wish to be educated about this system. Only criteria is keep it simple since i have not purchased new hair dye to cover my shockingly light blonde roots. Are there books? Are their websites? ARe their workshops? Who has examples of how this works? Please I'm curious but not to patient (no laughing Jorge)

Nathan Smith · Apr 7, 2005

Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know, but 'BTZS' stands for 'Beyond the Zone System' which first came from a book by Phil Davis by that name. There was also a workbook that went along with it. I guess Davis then built that into a commercial enterprise which sold (sells?) products to go along with his teachings.
I have not read the book myself so I cannot give you a review or critique.
Nathan

noseoil · Apr 7, 2005

Aggie, the best book on the subject is Beyond the Zone System by Dr. Phil Davis. It is a comprehensive guide to testing, procedures and evaluation of films and paper.

His basic premise, as I understand it, is to start with the paper as a reference point, and then tailor negatives to match the scale with film exposure and development. This is the opposite to using the zone system. tim

Jorge · Apr 7, 2005

As stated before, Phil's book is the best option for a DIY, the View Camera store has workshops on the system given by Fred. Unfortunatelly last year was the last time Phil conducted the workshop, he is getting up there in years and he has decided not to travel much anymore, but Fred Newman is very capable and very well versed in the system. I am sure his workshop would be worth while.

The BTZS has a web site...

http://www.btzs.org/

You can visit and read some of the articles written by Phil. Presently there is a BTZS light, which mainly guides you through the testing and how to meter without as much in depth explanations as there are in the book. This was done by Phil at the urging of many of us who realize that it is an awesome system, but that many people are put off by all the dry technical explanations presented in the book. I gotta tell you, once you get the hang of it and realize how easy and powrful it is, you wont use anything else.

Good luck and keep in mind that there are many of us here who will be glad to help you through it if you decide to take a stab at it on your own.

smieglitz · Apr 7, 2005

Jorge said:
...I gotta tell you, once you get the hang of it and realize how easy and powrful it is, you wont use anything else...

Jorge,

I have the first edition of the BTZS book from long ago. I've read it several times and it always struck me that the sensitometry was a good aspect of it, but I was turned off by his "Incident System" so I never took it up in practice. Does the current incarnation of BTZS still advocate and rely upon an incident meter and do most practitioners actually use such an instrument or is a spot/reflected meter easily used with the BTZS?

Thanks,

Joe

Jorge · Apr 7, 2005

smieglitz said:
Jorge,

I have the first edition of the BTZS book from long ago. I've read it several times and it always struck me that the sensitometry was a good aspect of it, but I was turned off by his "Incident System" so I never took it up in practice. Does the current incarnation of BTZS still advocate and rely upon an incident meter and do most practitioners actually use such an instrument or is a spot/reflected meter easily used with the BTZS?

Thanks,

Joe

Yes, the incident meter is sitll part of the system. If you prefer to do spot metering and have the expodev palm program, you can use either incident or spot metering. I have found the incident metering far more reliable and accurate than spot metering, but to each it's own.
As with everything the incident meter approach requires some getting used to and some practice to obtain the tones one wants in the negative and subsequently in the print but I have found my exposures have much better since I adopted the BTZS and incident metering. With pt/pd you have little chance to do any dodging or burning, having a negative that has the tones one visualized in the print is invaluable.

BTW, I have the second edition with the work book, these books sat in my shelve for more than 10 years before I gave it a serious chance, that was a mistake!

mark · Apr 7, 2005

I can mail you the video tape for viewing. It will help a lot. Piss poor production but makes more sense than the book. Then read the book and things will make a hell of a lot more sense. It has already been to Canada why not California.

mikepry · Apr 7, 2005

I switched over about 4 months ago and wish I did it along time ago. I have never had such consistently good negatives to work with. Jorge really helped me allot (he should win an award) and the whole incident thing is fabulous. I still don't know why the system gets such a bad rap though. I'm not lookin' back!

PS Check your pm Aggie

Claire Senft · Apr 7, 2005

Fourth edition

Aggie, If you want to pay the postage both ways I will send you my copy of the fourth edition. I would want it back within 60 days. Your local library may have a copy of an edition of it. It is available thru Amazon. Money well spent in my opinion. I also prefer the incident system to the use of a spot meter.

Claire

Dave Wooten · Apr 7, 2005

one of our sponsors...the View Camera Store ... has the book and updates

give them a call...they have always been most helpful to me

Dave in Vegas

phfitz · Apr 8, 2005

For what it's worth, I can only agree with everyone above. It's well worth the read and giving it the time to try it out.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Aggie · Apr 8, 2005

ya'll are great, and once I am back on my feet i will be taking several of you up on your offers.

James Bleifus · Apr 9, 2005

I guess one of the questions I've been wondering about is how you guys handle film while traveling. Do you have an individual box for each SBR that you put exposed film into? And is there an easy work around for spot metering (I have the first edition book which doesn't discuss spot metering at all [or at least I can't find it])?

Cheers,

James

Konical · Apr 9, 2005

Good Afternoon, James,

On occasion, I have carried three separate boxes for minus, normal, and plus development. (I found that I almost never had anything to put in the "plus" box.) Others carry one box and compartmentalize it. Some also have other ways of "marking" film sheets. If you do a search on this topic, I think you'll find that it has been addressed here in the past year or so.

Konical

James Bleifus · Apr 9, 2005

Thanks Konical. I too use the plus, normal and minus route but the prospect of travelling with film exposed (potentially) between SBRs 11 - 5.5 rather than just plus, normal and minus is daunting. The marking technique sounds like what I need. I'll search the forum and see what works for me. Thanks for your input.

Cheers,

James

James Bleifus · Apr 9, 2005

mikepry said:
I switched over about 4 months ago and wish I did it along time ago. I have never had such consistently good negatives to work with. Jorge really helped me allot (he should win an award) and the whole incident thing is fabulous.

OK, That won me over. I'm a big fan of consistently good negatives. I've been on the fence for a few weeks (even though I've bought the first edition) since I need to use a spot meter. I'm ordering the BTZS Lite and the Power Dial. I would have loved to have ordered the Palm software but I'm on a Mac.

Cheers,

James

Graeme Hird · Apr 9, 2005

Can anyone give me a guide to the metering methods employed by this system? I shoot trannies almost exclusively, so paper density has no relevance to me. However, I'm always interested in expanding the techniques available to me for getting my exposures spot on.

BTW, I'm a cheapskate and I don't want to fork out for a book when all I'm after is the exposure method. If that's what it takes, I will pay for it, but I'd rather not.

Cheers,

Ornello · Apr 9, 2005

Graeme Hird said:
Can anyone give me a guide to the metering methods employed by this system? I shoot trannies almost exclusively, so paper density has no relevance to me. However, I'm always interested in expanding the techniques available to me for getting my exposures spot on.

BTW, I'm a cheapskate and I don't want to fork out for a book when all I'm after is the exposure method. If that's what it takes, I will pay for it, but I'd rather not.

Cheers,

There is no such thing as 'correct' exposure (though there is such a thing as incorrect exposure). All exposures within reason are valid interpretations of a scene. I shot two Kodachromes at a public festival a few years ago, about two stops apart, of a Chinese woman. I like them both.

Graeme Hird · Apr 9, 2005

Ornello said:
There is no such thing as 'correct' exposure (though there is such a thing as incorrect exposure). All exposures within reason are valid interpretations of a scene. I shot two Kodachromes at a public festival a few years ago, about two stops apart, of a Chinese woman. I like them both.

Perhaps I should be more specific: "correct" to me means the "exact exposure I wanted to make". Randomly firing at different exposures and later choosing the best one is not my style.

Call me a control freak if you like, but I want to make the interpretation before making my exposure, not after. If a modified BTZS exposure method helps, I'll use it.

Cheers,

Graeme Hird · Apr 10, 2005

Thanks Jay. I was hoping to add another tool to the kit, to be brought out when the need arises. Looks like this one won't help me too much.

Cheers,

BTZS

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