BTZS Request

chrisf · Aug 3, 2008

Hi,

I recently bought the expo/dev software for my palm. The film database doesn't include pyrocat hd as a developer.

Could someone email me curves for FP4+ and Efke 25 both in Pyrocat Hd rotary processed, in the format used in the database?

Thanks,
chris

jeroldharter · Aug 3, 2008

I've never used pyro developers. My understanding is that the data is not in the software, because pyro does not behave well with BTZS methods.

You should call the View Camera Store and ask. You might need to test for yourself if nobody responds. I did two of their film tests for TMAX 100 in different developers and it worked out well. They do the sensitometer readings and then email you the plotter file.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 3, 2008

jeroldharter said:
I've never used pyro developers. My understanding is that the data is not in the software, because pyro does not behave well with BTZS methods.

You should call the View Camera Store and ask. You might need to test for yourself if nobody responds. I did two of their film tests for TMAX 100 in different developers and it worked out well. They do the sensitometer readings and then email you the plotter file.

In my experience, Pyro developers (in general) and Pyrocat in particular, behave very well when used with the BTZS methodology. I have published D logE curves for TMY developed in Pyrocat on APUG. If I recall correctly, Sandy King has published data for FP4 developed in Pyrocat on APUG.

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

Phil was never a fan of Pyro for a few reasons. One was that due to the stain having effects on VC papers it was not easily measured. Second after the issues of alt uses for the negs, such as Platinum processes etc. One could not easily measure the stains effect on UV. This measurement issue was the same reason he was not a fan of IR films.

Phil went through dozens of developers for testing and really, while I use PMK for pretty much everything, I have to agree. If you follow the BTZS plan, it works with any standard developer.

If you really want more technical advice, we have several efficianados here as well as Fred at the View Camera Store down in Arizona.

juan · Aug 4, 2008

I don't think Fred is a fan of pyro, so he might not be able to help. I use pyrocat with BTZS and it works very well. I don't, however, have data for those two films.
juan

sanking · Aug 4, 2008

Chris,

I am not sure what you mean by a film databse compatible with the expo/dev software.

If you use Winplotter, which I assume you do since you have BTZS, I can send you a file for the PC which has data for FP4+ developed in Pyrocat-HD. I don't believe I have anything on Efke 25, but could check.

My recollection is that I simply keyed in the development data from the Winplotter file to the PDA and assume you could do the same.

Phil Davis did not use Pyro type developers because in his opinion the stain made it impossible to work with the kind of precision he liked with VC silver papers. I suspect that Fred Newman feels the same.

In spite of that my own belief is that Pyro staining developers have some very desirable characteristics that make their use worthwhile, even if the stain does interfere some with the absolute precision of BTZS.

Sandy King

chrisf said:
Hi,

I recently bought the expo/dev software for my palm. The film database doesn't include pyrocat hd as a developer.

Could someone email me curves for FP4+ and Efke 25 both in Pyrocat Hd rotary processed, in the format used in the database?

Thanks,
chris

chrisf · Aug 4, 2008

Sandy,

Thanks for your response. I do have the expo/dev software on my brother's pc since I use an older Mac. I didn't buy the Plotter software separately and I don't know if it came with the expo/dev. I'll take a look tonight. That'll be great if you could send me the file. slipperysilks1936 at yahoo

chris

Mahler_one · Aug 4, 2008

I believe that part of the "problem" with Pyro and BTZS has to do with the ability of many densitometers to read the correct densities of negatives developed in Pyro and derivatives. Sandy would obviously be able to comment with much more knowldege then I.

Edwin

sanking · Aug 4, 2008

Edwin,

Basically, BTZS works with full precision with pyro staining developers if you print on graded silver papers. You simply take density readings with the blue channel of the densitometer. Most B&W densitometers will also work if you use a blue filter (47 or 47b) and zero it out before taking a reading.

BTZS will also work with full precision with pyro stained negatives and alternative processes sensitive to UV light if you take a reading with the densitometer in UV mode. Problem is not many densitometers are capable of UV readings.

VC silver papers are more difficult to work with using BTZS and stained negatives because they have two kinds of sensitivity, blue and green, and which one is being used varies according to the filtration in use. This makes it impossible to get full BTZS precision with these type of papers and pyro stained negatives.

Sandy King

Mahler_one said:
I believe that part of the "problem" with Pyro and BTZS has to do with the ability of many densitometers to read the correct densities of negatives developed in Pyro and derivatives. Sandy would obviously be able to comment with much more knowldege then I.

Edwin

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 4, 2008

Robert Hall said:
Phil was never a fan of Pyro for a few reasons. One was that due to the stain having effects on VC papers it was not easily measured. Second after the issues of alt uses for the negs, such as Platinum processes etc. One could not easily measure the stains effect on UV. This measurement issue was the same reason he was not a fan of IR films.

Phil went through dozens of developers for testing and really, while I use PMK for pretty much everything, I have to agree. If you follow the BTZS plan, it works with any standard developer.

If you really want more technical advice, we have several efficianados here as well as Fred at the View Camera Store down in Arizona.

Robert, I routinely measure the UV densities of my stain images with my Heiland TD2 Black and White Densitometer. I have a UV probe and a Silver-Visual probe for the densitometer.

BTW I am very pleased with my Heiland Densitometer and the personal service and probe advice given to me by Juergen Heiland.

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

I do as well Tom, but really my point was that from paper to paper and from measuring device to device, one would have to do ones own testing as opposed to looking into a database due to the spectral differences in papers and devices.

As I stated, I use pmk as well and it measures well with my process and it is quite accurate but I don't think my data would do Chris a lot of good.

Phil and I had quite the discussion on his feelings about BTZS should be one of understanding. He wanted everyone to know how to do the work themselves. I suggested that since he had such a huge database of work done from so many different films that he could share that with the public and many could use the data without having to go through the pain of the math.

I think what I was trying to say is that it's best to do the testing in ones own environment if it's at all possible. This will remove any variability and give one a good understanding of what is happening in the process.

Cheers

chrisf · Aug 4, 2008

Robert Hall said:
I do as well Tom, but really my point was that from paper to paper and from measuring device to device, one would have to do ones own testing as opposed to looking into a database due to the spectral differences in papers and devices.

As I stated, I use pmk as well and it measures well with my process and it is quite accurate but I don't think my data would do Chris a lot of good.

Phil and I had quite the discussion on his feelings about BTZS should be one of understanding. He wanted everyone to know how to do the work themselves. I suggested that since he had such a huge database of work done from so many different films that he could share that with the public and many could use the data without having to go through the pain of the math.

I think what I was trying to say is that it's best to do the testing in ones own environment if it's at all possible. This will remove any variability and give one a good understanding of what is happening in the process.

Cheers

Robert,

Thanks for your input.
I'm not trying to take a short cut, I have done some of the testing and read Phil's book. I followed his method for using a spot meter for reading the paper densities. As far as the film goes I did do some testing and plotted them using a small densitometer that is only for transmission. I even used the blue Wratten 47 filter Sandy recommends. But I paid $10.00 for this densitometer and I think the results are about as accurate.

With an imported set of data I could get started using the system and see how things look. I'll be able to fine tune from there. I use graded paper.

chris

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

Good deal Chris,

BTW, I was the one telling him to put the data our there so i am actually the guilty one. I figured that if it was out there people would have a choice, or at least a good jumping off place. Phil kinda groaned and more or less agreed.

Now for more important questions... how did you find a $10 densitometer?!

Rob

chrisf · Aug 4, 2008

It's a Sekura I picked up on fleabay a while ago. It is small with four feet, one has a hole which is used to take the reading. The meter is a needle reading in .1 increments.

chris

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

Awesome!

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 4, 2008

Robert Hall said:
I do as well Tom, but really my point was that from paper to paper and from measuring device to device, one would have to do ones own testing as opposed to looking into a database due to the spectral differences in papers and devices.

As I stated, I use pmk as well and it measures well with my process and it is quite accurate but I don't think my data would do Chris a lot of good.

Phil and I had quite the discussion on his feelings about BTZS should be one of understanding. He wanted everyone to know how to do the work themselves. I suggested that since he had such a huge database of work done from so many different films that he could share that with the public and many could use the data without having to go through the pain of the math.

I think what I was trying to say is that it's best to do the testing in ones own environment if it's at all possible. This will remove any variability and give one a good understanding of what is happening in the process.

Cheers

I agree, Robert I do my own testing in my environment and apply the lessons Phil taught.

sanking · Aug 4, 2008

I would also add that Phil put a lot of his data on the sample files that come with WinPlotter. Virtually every important film and developer combination you can think of (excluding Pyro staining developers) is on the disk, as well as dozens and dozens of paper files.

I share Robert and Tom's view that it is important to do your own testing. On the other hand, the data from good film testing with BTZS tubes is highly portable if done correctly.

Sandy King

chrisf · Aug 5, 2008

I don't want to buy the Plotter for one or two films I use, so I did my testing today and tomorrow I will plot for my development times on paper and keep that in the dark room.
I only use Pyrocat-HD so while the amount of films and developer combinations are nice to have I doubt I will use them.

thanks to all who responded,
chris

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 5, 2008

MY DENSITOMETRY for TMY in Pyrocat

chrisf said:
I don't want to buy the Plotter for one or two films I use, so I did my testing today and tomorrow I will plot for my development times on paper and keep that in the dark room.
I only use Pyrocat-HD so while the amount of films and developer combinations are nice to have I doubt I will use them.

thanks to all who responded,
chris

chris, here is a MS Excel graph showing the D logE curves for TMY developed in Pyrocat MC (Stain image density curve and Silver image density curve). I did the densitometry for this test with an old MacBeth Transmission Color densitometer.

TMY developed in Pyrocat HD at the same time and temperature, the same dilution and the same agitation, gives me the same result.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

BTZS Request

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