Kirk Keyes said:Last year, I was in Death Valley, trying to take photos of patterns in the sand. I've got one of those newer Minolta Flashmeter VIs that can do both incident and reflected measurements. I used the spot meter while there and some of the scenes were only about 3-4 stops (reflected) between the darker and lighter portions of the scene. Using Acros and Xtol, I was able to develop the film enough to expand it out to where it prints well.
Today, I was flipping through my copy of the BTZS book (3rd Ed.), and I thought back to the Death Valley stuff. So I was looking for a description of how to meter scenes of low contrast using BZTS. Using an incident meter, it looks to me that the BZTS system can't measure scenes that have SBR's less than 5. It also seems that it can't differentiate between a 5 SBR scene and a 3 or 4 SBR scene.
I know you can determine development times for SBR ranges this low, but how do you actually measure them with and incident meter. Does photographer's discretion (i.e. override meter readings) kick in here?
Kirk
Kirk Keyes said:Last year, I was in Death Valley, trying to take photos of patterns in the sand. I've got one of those newer Minolta Flashmeter VIs that can do both incident and reflected measurements. I used the spot meter while there and some of the scenes were only about 3-4 stops (reflected) between the darker and lighter portions of the scene. Using Acros and Xtol, I was able to develop the film enough to expand it out to where it prints well.
Today, I was flipping through my copy of the BTZS book (3rd Ed.), and I thought back to the Death Valley stuff. So I was looking for a description of how to meter scenes of low contrast using BZTS. Using an incident meter, it looks to me that the BZTS system can't measure scenes that have SBR's less than 5. It also seems that it can't differentiate between a 5 SBR scene and a 3 or 4 SBR scene.
I know you can determine development times for SBR ranges this low, but how do you actually measure them with and incident meter. Does photographer's discretion (i.e. override meter readings) kick in here?
Kirk
Kirk Keyes said:PS - I realize this is not a very common situation, but I can think of several other situations that this could occur, things like rock patterns or rock art.
mark said:This is actually very common where I live.
jdef said:Unless I've read it wrong, Kirk's question has to do with measuring low SBR scenes, and not developing film.
Kirk Keyes said:Last year, I was in Death Valley, trying to take photos of patterns in the sand. I've got one of those newer Minolta Flashmeter VIs that can do both incident and reflected measurements. I used the spot meter while there and some of the scenes were only about 3-4 stops (reflected) between the darker and lighter portions of the scene. Using Acros and Xtol, I was able to develop the film enough to expand it out to where it prints well.
Today, I was flipping through my copy of the BTZS book (3rd Ed.), and I thought back to the Death Valley stuff. So I was looking for a description of how to meter scenes of low contrast using BZTS. Using an incident meter, it looks to me that the BZTS system can't measure scenes that have SBR's less than 5. It also seems that it can't differentiate between a 5 SBR scene and a 3 or 4 SBR scene.
I know you can determine development times for SBR ranges this low, but how do you actually measure them with and incident meter. Does photographer's discretion (i.e. override meter readings) kick in here?
Kirk
Kirk Keyes said:Mark - where do you live?
Kirk Keyes said:Jay, you're right. I was asking about how to meter in those situations.
And if anyone is interested, I've gotten Xtol 1+1 at 20C with Fuji Acros to process to an SBR of 2.8 with a bit of base+fog, and to SBR of 3.0 with B+F of only 0.10 - so processing the film to those levels is definitely not a problem for me! Someday I'll try Xtol undiluted and save some time!
So I guess the bottom line is I would just have to guess with the incident meter/BZTS metering, or use the spot meter as I did.
jdef said:Unless I've read it wrong, Kirk's question has to do with measuring low SBR scenes, and not developing film. Regarding film/developer combinations for extreme expansion development, I think there is some mythology at work in some of the admonitions bandied about. I can get an SBR of 3.3 with HP5+ and Defehr Rapid Universal developer in 3 min/70F, with very low B+F.
Jay
Donald Miller said:What do you mean that you can get an SBR of 3.3 with HP5+ and your developer? I remember you saying that you had read the BTZS book. Where does it express developing film to a given SBR?...SBR is a measurement of scene contrast and the correct terminology is to develop for the SBR inherent in the exposure. Never have I heard of anyone who is knowledgeable in BTZS express a SBR in tenths...
Do you have a densitometer to measure these results that you are claiming? I would be interested in seeing the curves that you have plotted for this degree of expansion.
Donald Miller said:The correct termininology consistant with BTZS procedure would be developing for a given SBR.
sanking said:...and many of us believe that BTZS does in theory allow for SBR values below 5, as in the situation Kirk described. And in fact, Davis' own plotter program does graph SBR values below 5.
Sandy
sanking said:Donald,
Although Davis does not give any examples in Beyond the Zone System, at least so far as I can recall, of SBRs below 5, some of his examples of metering for unusual lighting conditions appear to recognize that they are possible with incident metering. I have discussed the issue with a number of fairly knowledgeable persons who use BTZS, including Dick Arentz who uses both Zone System and BTZS, and many of us believe that BTZS does in theory allow for SBR values below 5, as in the situation Kirk described. And in fact, Davis' own plotter program does graph SBR values below 5.
Sandy
Kirk Keyes said:I've made a spread sheet that performs the calculations as layed out in the book.
Thanks for the correction on the terminology. And your sentence above is exactly the kind of terminology I was trying to convey in the "CI of blank film" thread recently. You CAN develop film to a given SBR, just as you can develop film to a given CI. Even if the film didn't recieve a full range of exposure, like in the case of low contrast scenes - say 3 or 4 SBR, or even scenes with no contrast, such as a blank sheet of film.
Kirk Keyes said:You CAN develop film to a given SBR, just as you can develop film to a given CI. Even if the film didn't recieve a full range of exposure, like in the case of low contrast scenes - say 3 or 4 SBR, or even scenes with no contrast, such as a blank sheet of film.
sanking said:CI has no reality beyond its realization.
Kirk Keyes said:I've made a spread sheet that performs the calculations as layed out in the book.
Thanks for the correction on the terminology. And your sentence above is exactly the kind of terminology I was trying to convey in the "CI of blank film" thread recently. You CAN develop film to a given SBR, just as you can develop film to a given CI. Even if the film didn't recieve a full range of exposure, like in the case of low contrast scenes - say 3 or 4 SBR, or even scenes with no contrast, such as a blank sheet of film.
jdef said:If you have the winplotter software, I would be happy to provide the raw data, so that you can plot the cuves for yourself, and see all of the data that program generates.
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