Brown Toner with Lith?

Shangheye · May 6, 2009

I often read about Bleach and sepia toning of Lith, but I have yet to see anybody mention whether brown toner produces any interesting effects with Lith printing.

I use Brown toner as my sepia toner, and would like to keep it that way if possible, since I now know what I am doing with it, and I like the effects I get when combining it with Selenium toning.

Would it work...or am I off to buy new chemistry :rolleyes:

I would also be interested if anyone has examples or recommended dilutions. I usually use 1+25.

Rgds, Kal

Travis Nunn · May 6, 2009

I've never tried brown toner with lith. Give it a try and let us know how it works out. I look forward to reading about your results.

As far as recommended dilutions, there really there aren't any. I know some people use it at 1:5, I typically dilute 1:19, others, like yourself dilute weaker than I and everything in between. It's whatever you feel works best for you.

Shangheye · May 6, 2009

Thanks Travis. It will be a while before I go back in for a Lith session, since I am way behind on my traditional portfolio at the moment, but I will be definitely trying it. Would be great if Tim Rudman or Wolfgang would give us an idea of their views on the subject...

Rgds, Kal

psvensson · May 6, 2009

I've tried brown toner with lith, and in my experience the results are not very interesting. Kodak Brown Toner evened out and actually cooled the tone of the prints, taking out some of the "lithiness." I believe this was with Oriental Seagull RC paper - results might be differ. But you rarely see mention of brown toner being used by master lithers, and I imagine there's a reason.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 6, 2009

I think the reason why toning lith prints is interesting is that highlights are built differently than with standard chemistry, it's mostly a tone of color, which I believe comes from an oxidation process.

I tried selenium toning a lith print made on Agfa Portriga Rapid the other day, and all of the glorious highlight tones just disappeared, and faded into gray. The black and gray turned, as expected, to a dark copper brown after a while, while the highlights remained very bleak and looking washed out. I suspect brown toner might have a similar effect. I know that when I bleach lith prints and re-develop in sepia, the highlights come back, or most of them anyway, which is why I overexpose those prints in the enlarger by about a half stop. The highlights come back nicer that way. And then it's only after the print has been toned in sepia that the selenium really starts to look good to my eyes.

Trial and error - get your hands wet, Kal, and let us know how it went... Or, I have some Kodak Brown toner at the house, I might try it myself.

- Thomas

Shangheye · May 6, 2009

Thanks for the explanation Thomas. I will try the brown just to see...I just want to avoid yet another chemistry purchase...I don't print Lith regularly enough, and now I am used to Brown and can control it, I would rather not yet another chemistry. If you try it, let me know how you get on! Best, K

Rich Ullsmith · May 6, 2009

Try it on a reject. I'm afraid brown toner would destroy (or mitigate) any tonal splits you achieved during development.

Guillaume Zuili · May 6, 2009

Bleach (weak) then Brown toner. Wash then Selenium.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 7, 2009

Guillaume to the rescue... I had a feeling you would have tried it before!
What do you see using this process that makes it different from sepia/selenium split?

Guillaume Zuili · May 7, 2009

Weak bleach will give more contrast and enhance highlights. Selenium just to pop the blacks.
I very much like polysulfide. The weaker the better. Then put in a water bath and wait. You see it changing.
Hypo, rinse then selenium for the blacks. Hypo again...bla bla bla.
Difference is in the color range Thomas.

Guillaume Zuili · May 7, 2009

The color killer in lith is selenium alone.

Shangheye · May 7, 2009

Thanks Guillaume! So when you use the weak bleach (I have never used bleach!) with the Lith print, at what point do you stop?...I assume it does not literally bleach the print, but do you wait for the hilights and mid-tones to to dispapear and then put in the brown? Or is that part of the artsitic lcense ;-) I have to agree that I am in love with Polysulfide. It is simple to use and I find very controllable.

Thanks!

Rgds, Kal

Mateo · May 7, 2009

actually brown toner has it's place with lith printing too. try 200:1 for 10 sec and then HCA. Oriental goes yellow in the highlights, very strong split. try without the HCA and you'll see why you need it. you don't see the toning happen, you see it in the wash and straight to the wash it'l be uneven.

Shangheye · May 7, 2009

Thanks Mateo...going to show my ignorance here...what is HCA...? Rgds, Kal

Anon Ymous · May 7, 2009

Hypo Clearing Agent. It's used to reduce washing time for FB paper.

Shangheye · May 7, 2009

OK!...Hypo...I use it. Thanks!. k

Thomas Bertilsson · May 7, 2009

Kal, you probably don't want to bleach as far as taking both highlights and mid-tones out. If you use a weak bleach, experiment with times. It's hard to tell how long, because in my experience toning lith prints and the effects it gives depends on your paper and chemistry.
When I use Ilford MGWT for lith, I bleach it in potassium ferricyanide (with bromide) in a 1+5 solution for between 1 and 3 minutes before I do the sepia bath. (I actually use the bleach that comes with the Kodak sepia kits). The time spent in the bleach varies the amount of sepia tone I get. I'm only interested in getting the effect in the highlights.

The Hypo Clearing Agent bath is actually a good idea after any toner bath. Don't confuse it with Hypo, because that's a fixer; many people use pure hypo as a second fixing bath, just to make sure the fixing is archival.

- Thomas

Shangheye · May 7, 2009

Right I understand...I did mean Hype clearing which I use after fixing to improve washing...so we are talking the same thing (except someone in my darkroom could think it was fixer...since I label it Hypo!). Thanks for the info Thomas..I think I will invest in a bleach/sepia kit. If only to have the bleach available, but also to allow me to try the bleach followed by Sepia combination in the future. Rgds, kal

Wolfgang Moersch · May 7, 2009

Kal, it´s a wide sphere. Your intention is decisively and of course the nuture of the paper and the effect of toner formulation. Ask two photographers and you will get at least five answers.
Perhaps I can give you one or two more.
Lith + sodium sulphide, thiourea, carbon, polysulphide http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/artikel/anleitungen/131/lang:en

Shangheye · May 8, 2009

Thanks Wolfgang! I actually have a pdf version of some of your recommendations and experimentation that I refer to for advidce, but I just realised your link has so much more discourse about the options and ways to do this. So much more detail. I had always assumed it was a copy of what I had and never looked...!! That is is a treasure trove of a web site ;-)) I am off for a read. I have so much to learn :rolleyes:

Rgds, Kal

Shangheye · May 11, 2009

I have used Sodium Sulphite as Clearing agent before when toning, but can I use any of the commercial Hypo Clearing agents e.g. Kodak etc (and Ilfords WashAid)...or should I stick to Sodium Sulphite, when dealing with toning? Rgds, kal

Wolfgang Moersch · May 12, 2009

Kodak HCA is better than a plain sodium-sulphite solution. Because the pH is lower, a swelling of the gelatin is prevented.

Philippe Grunchec · May 12, 2009

Wolfgang, what about Tetenal Lavaquick?

Shangheye · May 12, 2009

Wolfgang, Thanks for the answer. One other question, you talk of a 1:1 solution of commercial sulphite Clearing agent on your website. I assume that for my Kodak Clearing agent (which basically requires dilution to a stock solution before diluting further to a working solution) you mean 1stock to 1water?

Rgds, Kal

Wolfgang Moersch · May 12, 2009

Yes Kal. Relating to the amount of sulphite you have do dilute it 1+1 or max. 1+2. That´s expensive for this purpose. What we need here is sulphite (round about) 10% solution. Stock HCA contains aprox. 20% sulphite. (+ additives for ph regulation and complexing agents, we don´t need for this application).

Philippe, I dont know if it is a sulphite or a soda solution.

Brown Toner with Lith?

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