Bronica SQ-Am Mirror Lock Up

GjG · Mar 11, 2020

Hi all, Hope someone can help.

I got myself a Bronica SQ-AM, After visiting a few websites (including this one) and getting to grips wit the various controls (and oddities of this camera) - loaded up some film - and ran into some difficulties!!!

The f counter is between S-1

I understand the MLU can be used in Normal, Single and Continuous mode (Used on analogue and digital 35mm prev). Also understand the multi-exp lever.

As the light was low a couple of days ago, I locked the mirror to prevent shake prior to taking picture. When shutter release pressed - RED light, top/middle of finder flashes, but that's it - No shutter noise (in lens), and Mirror still locked.

When the film advance button pressed, shows RED light adjacent, which stays on- only way to extinguish is to turn camera off (dial) then switch on again.

Tried with (empty) spare back as well as loaded one - yes I took out the blind side prior to firing shutter.

I also have a AE eye-level finder, again tried with and without finder...

Installed new batteries (both sets) still no joy. Could the small 6v cell be drained as I continue, and are there differences in make (cheaper brands) I've ordered more. just in case?

Any help or advise greatly appreciated.
Glen

Rick A · Mar 11, 2020

Have you read the manual?
https://www.butkus.org/chinon/bronica/bronica_sq-a-m/bronica_sq-a-m.htm

GjG · Mar 12, 2020

Hi Rick A.
Thanks for the prompt reply.
Yes. But camera not doing as expected.
I was trying to see if film could be advanced (camera cocked, or triggered without power?) The A-m seems to be mostly electronic.

Rick A · Mar 12, 2020

Not "mostly electronic", completely electronic. I used to own one, they are wonderful cameras but finicky. Try removing the back and switch to mirror up mode and see if it fires. If it does your issue is with the back. There's a thread somewhere here that addresses that issue and a possible repair. I have a 220 back that won't allow the shutter to fire with my SQ-A, I may try to fix it one of these days.

GjG · Mar 12, 2020

Just my luck
I wanted to get back to a manual camera and was tempted by this (GREAT PRICE, came with extra lens and other stuff). Oh well, will try your suggestion - after trip to dentist, that will put me in an even better mood.
Will let you know how I do (with camera, not dentist)
Thanks again

GjG · Mar 12, 2020

OK - I have replaced 6v battery (just in case) switched on, taken back off, flipped MLU to S - Nothing, Switched off, MLU back to N
Switched on camera (back still off), MLU to C- Nothing, Switched off, MLU back to N
Switched on camera, (back still off) flicked Multi Exp lever to horizontal, pressed exp button - Nothing, MEx lever back vertical
Different back (empty) repeated above - Nothing

I have ordered different make of 6v batteries - will try again when they arrive.

Rick A · Mar 12, 2020

Okay, but how about the 1.5v AA batteries? Is the battery pack intact? I had an issue with mine, easy fix and all powered up.

GjG · Mar 12, 2020

New set of 6 in pack - pack seemed to be a fraction loose, sorted with a bit of card, the casing looks ok though - as far as I can see anyways.
Will get another brand to see if they make a difference

Rick A · Mar 12, 2020

If you have access to a multi-meter check to see if you have continuity to the terminals of the battery pack, and a full 9 volts. Also check the corresponding terminals in the camera for continuity.

wiltw · Mar 12, 2020

Rick A said:
Not "mostly electronic", completely electronic. I used to own one, they are wonderful cameras but finicky. Try removing the back and switch to mirror up mode and see if it fires. If it does your issue is with the back. There's a thread somewhere here that addresses that issue and a possible repair. I have a 220 back that won't allow the shutter to fire with my SQ-A, I may try to fix it one of these days.

The Bronica camera has an ELECTRONICALLY TIMED SHUTTER, but nothing else is electronic!!! It is a bunch of mechanical interlocks that comprise the Bronica ETR/SQ/GS camera. Even the SHUTTER OPEN is mechanical, it is only SHUTTER CLOSE which is electronically timed (and defaults to 1/500 if no batteries)! And shutter close triggers the confirmation LED seen in the viewfinder.

Some of the operation of the camera REQUIRES FILM, unless the multiexposure lever is actuated!

Since that is the case, I would encourage any beginner who does not know their camera intimately to PUT IN FILM into a film back, for any testing that simulates real use!

Rick A · Mar 12, 2020

The OP's motorized camera depends on electronics to do most all of the functions, a real PITA if something doesn't allow it to function. Sure, the interlocks are most likely the cause of his problem, as is the case with most SQ's, finding the right one is a trip. I just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out why one of my backs wouldn't function, and you could remove it with the dark slide removed. A minuscule burr on the end of the pin tube for the DS release kept the mating body pin from entering and mating with the pin in the back. Solved, corrected, back functional.

voceumana · Mar 12, 2020

Make sure the lens is not set for a Time exposure. It would keep the shutter open until the shutter is manually closed.

GjG · Mar 13, 2020

Thank you all for your input, nice to know there are others to shed light on a new subject for me (Med Format Analogue) - Although I started on 35mm film, have for the last 20 or more years been using (35mm and 'compacts) Digitals. After doing a little research I thought would like to have a go at MF cameras, even with their peculiarities!! - More a craft than a science?

I've tried a back with film (6x6), and without (both, 6x6 and 6x4.5), although initially the mirror and the film advance seemed to work ( 5-6 times), the shutter never had. Now the Mirror is locked open and will not return.
I've tried without backs, with multi exp lever in both positions, replaced batteries, still no joy.

The lens is set to A (locked in with the screw) - not tried on timed as I didn't need it for now.

Need to try Rick A's suggestion with multi-meter, and have another go with new batteries.

Its just weird, when now you press film advance button the red light remains ON. I think I read somewhere this tells of electronics error? could the interlock give this too?

I've researched a repairer nearby, but may need to remortgage house and sell the car, if I go that route - really didn't want to return to seller but it may come to that....

GjG · Mar 13, 2020

I should of course said the SHUTTER RELEASE never worked - Other than the OFF/ON (S+C) dial there isn't another shutter lock is there?

Rick A · Mar 13, 2020

I've re read your initial post, and have a question. When you locked the mirror up, which lever did you use? There is the MLU lever for normal, single, or multi (NSC)on the right side just below the VF release button, there's also a lever about mid way back just below the view finder(it would be directly above the winder on the SQ-A), the Multiple exposure lever. Which one did you use? If the later, the lever should be vertical covering the red dot for use, rotated forward allows for firing the shutter and winding with NO film loaded.

DWThomas · Mar 13, 2020

GjG said:
another shutter lock is there?

Enh, assuming the SQ-AM is similar to the SQ-A, there is a ring around the shutter release button that rotates about a quarter turn to disable the button. There's a rather inconspicuous red dot on the ring which should point down when unlocked. It's intended to prevent triggering when carting the camera in a bag or such. It is mechanical and blocks some motion of the button, but since you're new to such cameras it might not be obvious. I believe with the SQ-A, at least, the shutter can still be fired by a cable release, though I admit use of that lock ring is not in my regular repertoire!

Rick A · Mar 13, 2020

That shutter release on the lower right of the front doesn't exist on the M model, shutter release is on the handle.

DWThomas · Mar 13, 2020

Rick A said:
That shutter release on the lower right of the front doesn't exist on the M model, shutter release is on the handle.

Ooops! I was afraid of that ... Well, there goes one of my remote troubleshooting gems down the crapper! Sorry -- I tried.

Back in 2006 I cobbled together my first SQ-A kit via pieces from ePrey and KEH. When the big moment arrived that I had enough stuff on hand to put my adult Tinkertoy(r) together, the film cranked right through without stopping. (And that friends, is how I came to APUG!!) I avoided the -Ai because it cost more, and the AM because it seemed unwieldy and I vaguely recall maybe had some issues. The -B seemed a needless reduction in features given the used gear pricing. I also avoided metering finders, since there were a fair number of reports of electrical problems, battery drain, and the like. Another body for -- like $100 -- solved the film cranking straight through. I have since acquired a bunch of lenses and the 90º and 45º prism finders -- and a spare body. It's useful to have two cameras' worth of stuff to do a/b comparisons when trouble shooting. For what could seem relatively simple, the mechanical interlocking can actually create some pretty complex situations which can be pretty frustrating to anyone who hasn't used one (and often even to those of us who do.)

All that said, the last three or four years I've probably done more shooting with my Yashica Mat 124G! But the SQ-A is still my goto for macro and similar challenging studio-oriented work.

GjG · Mar 13, 2020

Hi all, wow more response while away from my laptop, I'm certainly learning a lot about Bronicas in general. Thanks to all
Rick, on my Am, There is the lever nearer the front right (MLU) and one just behind that (Multi Exp Lever - red dot under lever - when horizontal) - Used a sequence of MLU, MLU and M/exp, M/exp - no joy

Dave, there is a 'ring' round the shutter release but I think its only a retaining mechanism? it has a couple of slots either side of release - no red dot, Rick is right Off/on dial on top of handle, behind Shutter release - also has S/C - I thing this is for single or multiple shots. Unfortunately the only Release Cable I had didn't fit. Are there some specific to these cameras?

I did wonder about going the extra body route - but the only cheaper ones I see are incomplete or broken, not sure still...

Rick A · Mar 13, 2020

From the manual
In the following cases, the shutter will not be released and a shutter release warning LED will light up, outside the screen area, in the top center of the finder: 1 . Dark slide is inserted. 2. Lens is not attached properly. (Same with automatic extension tubes, too.) 3. Lens release button is depressed. 4. Film is not advanced. (Same when exposure counter is between "S" and "1 ".) 5. Batteries for motor drive operation does not have sufficient power. The film back is a film chamber that can be attached or detached freely, thus permitting free exchange of film types even during shooting sessions. The film back is fully coupled to the camera main body, upon attachment. Therefore, the shutter will not be released, even when the shutter release button is depressed if the film back is attached with the film still not advanced properly, and the shutter release warning LED will light up instead. The drive button should be used, in this case, to advance the film one frame. On the other hand, should the drive button be depressed when a film back is attached with film advanced properly and, therefore, in condition for photography, the film will not be advanced. Thus, it is possible to choose the film type most suited to the shot, even midway in the roll. An ASA/ISO film speed dial is available on the film backs and can be used for setting the film speed of the film loaded in the film back, as there is automatic coupling when finders with built-in exposure meters are attached on the camera body. This will, of course, be very convenient when using films of different sensitivities in the film backs.

GjG · Mar 13, 2020

Much to take in - Lens is attached, Tried with and without dark side.
Now then Lens release is a little lower and stiffer than I remember it being?? (certainly stiffer than the finder release - will check this out tomorrow
Back loaded and attached properly/ ASA/ISO set yo correct number (120) as per the BW film box
So I do need to check the Lens release, fingers crossed

wiltw · Mar 14, 2020

Rick A said:
The film back is fully coupled to the camera main body, upon attachment. Therefore, the shutter will not be released, even when the shutter release button is depressed if the film back is attached with the film still not advanced properly, and the shutter release warning LED will light up instead. The drive button should be used, in this case, to advance the film one frame.

The blue text is precisely WHY I earlier suggest to LOAD FILM! In the Bronica, only when film is fully advanced to an unexposed frame does a pin protrude from the film back into the camera body. If the pin does not protrude, the shutter button cannot be depressed. If the pin protrudes into the body goo far, the shutter release button will actuate, but the mirror does not rise fully, so the mechanical rotational arm at the bottom of the lens mount does not trigger the lens' shutter release mechanism, so the camera sounds like it fires, but the shutter never opens (and no exposure confurmation light when the shutter supposedly (does not) close.

DWThomas · Mar 14, 2020

And note that if you process your own film, the backing paper from a previous roll can be spooled and loaded in the camera for this testing and not waste film. In theory it could throw off the frame spacing a bit, but it won't matter for this purpose.

choiliefan · Mar 14, 2020

As DWT mentions, a dummy roll made up of backing paper on a reel is a great way to troubleshoot problems like this.

GjG · Mar 16, 2020

Ok, understand some proceedures need film (or dummy) to be in camera back - this would explain shutter release not firing initially. However, the shutter still not actuating even with film loaded back?? Or the film advance not 'working' and showing constant red light? (Next to button) I wonder if film is miss aligned? Could th show as error an holt th two buttons? And MLU not releasing?

Bronica SQ-Am Mirror Lock Up

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