Bronica SQ-A problem - help!

Roy Keane · Oct 2, 2021

Hoping for some help....my Bronica SQ-A fell, face first, onto a rock when my tripod fell over. Somehow, the lens seems fine, and I even took a couple of shots after the fall.

But 2 or 3 frames later, I have a problem: the winder turns but never gets to the point where the shutter is cocked...it just spins freely (the film advanced to the next frame but, since then, the winder spins freely, never cocks, and the film stays at teh last frame since it cocked).

I feel like I've lost a limb.

The last thing i did before it stopped working? I THINK (although I'm not 100% positive) that I changed lenses after the last successful shutter cocking.

It appears that I can shoot and advance a frame with the mirror in continuous lock-up mode, EVEN WITH THE DARK SLIDE IN. Otherwise, I can't get to the point where the shutter cocks when winding the film

I've tried the following with no success:

swapped out film backs (to rule out a connector problem with the film back or a broken film back)
loaded a new roll of film
Swapped out the lens (to rule out a connector problem with the lens or a broken lens)
New battery
visual inspection of the connectors between the body and the backs/lenses.
Anything I could find in similar posts here and elsewhere
Took everything off, set to multi-exposure mode -- this cocks the shutter and, visually, everything looks "normal"

I'm hoping the info about what happens in lock-up mode provides a clue that one of you smart people can decipher for me.

Even if I can't fix it, I'm hoping that we can determine WHERE the problem is (body vs. backs vs. lens).

Thanks!

moto-uno · Oct 2, 2021

First thought might be to see if you know anyone ( or camera store ) that might have an SQ-A and see if your lens or backs work on it ? Peter

Roy Keane · Oct 2, 2021

moto-uno said:
First thought might be to see if you know anyone ( or camera store ) that might have an SQ-A and see if your lens or backs work on it ? Peter

good idea, but we don't have any more camera stores, sad to say.

But i did the next best thing -- I bought a used body that's returnable. Even if I manage to fix the one I have now, I can just send it back (or sell one of them)

mshchem · Oct 2, 2021

Yeah, a decent body only might be a good thing to try. The waist level finder is worth more than the body. I've used SQAi and SQA bodies a lot, never had a problem. I feel for you, that's a nightmare.

Roy Keane · Oct 2, 2021

mshchem said:
Yeah, a decent body only might be a good thing to try. The waist level finder is worth more than the body. I've used SQAi and SQA bodies a lot, never had a problem. I feel for you, that's a nightmare.

thanks....yeah, I'm super bummed but I hope the body was the issue. I've been looking for a waist level finder (i have one but the magnifier broke) for ages, but I can't believe how expensive they are.

reddesert · Oct 2, 2021

There are a number of things that you can try with the body and back separated to test what is going on. For example, you can load a roll of backing paper (just paper so you don't waste film) into the back, and wind the back with the knob on the back. It should wind until you get to frame 1, and then a little pin will shoot out of the back, at the photographer's lower right (lower left as you look at the back from the darkslide side). This pin tells the camera the film is advanced. After that the back will freewheel.

With the camera body alone, with no back mounted, and the multi lever in the normal position, the body should wind through a cycle and then keep going. If you switch it to the multi exposure position, the wind knob will cock the shutter and then stop.

If you look at the body with the back removed, there should be a little pin in socket at lower right that receives the signal from the back that the film is wound. If you depress this pin with a small screwdriver, when you wind the body in non-multi-exposure mode, it should cock the shutter and stop.

It sounds like the problem might be that the body is not receiving the back's indication that the film is wound. This could be because the pin connector from back to body is bent or out of alignment or the pin in the body is not being pushed by the back, or it could be some issue deeper inside the body.

Switching the camera to the mirror lock up mode fires the shutter even with the darkslide inserted, so I suspect that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

Roy Keane · Oct 3, 2021

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to write this up for me. I really appreciate it.

Okay---here's what happened:

reddesert said:
There are a number of things that you can try with the body and back separated to test what is going on. For example, you can load a roll of backing paper (just paper so you don't waste film) into the back, and wind the back with the knob on the back. It should wind until you get to frame 1, and then a little pin will shoot out of the back, at the photographer's lower right (lower left as you look at the back from the darkslide side). This pin tells the camera the film is advanced. After that the back will freewheel.
Test completed - this worked as it should -- pin came out at frame 1 and, after that, wheel turned freely.

With the camera body alone, with no back mounted, and the multi lever in the normal position, the body should wind through a cycle and then keep going. If you switch it to the multi exposure position, the wind knob will cock the shutter and then stop.
Confirmed that this is how my camera body is behaving.

If you look at the body with the back removed, there should be a little pin in socket at lower right that receives the signal from the back that the film is wound. If you depress this pin with a small screwdriver, when you wind the body in non-multi-exposure mode, it should cock the shutter and stop.
I confirmed that your description matches what I'm experiencing. To be clear, this only works if I use the screwdriver to push in the pin AND KEEP IT PUSHED IN WITH THE SCREWDRIVER until it cocks. I

It sounds like the problem might be that the body is not receiving the back's indication that the film is wound. This could be because the pin connector from back to body is bent or out of alignment or the pin in the body is not being pushed by the back, or it could be some issue deeper inside the body.

Switching the camera to the mirror lock up mode fires the shutter even with the darkslide inserted, so I suspect that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

-

Okay so, based on your descriptions, it definitely seems it's a body problem (the alignment of that pin) and not a film back problem. I really appreciate your help.

I don't suppose you have any detailed insights on how to fix the bent or misaligned body pin?

Rowreidr · Oct 3, 2021

The back pin test you did only confirms that manually advancing via the back wind crank, resets the pin, but does not confirm the body wind crank is resetting the pin after each shot. Your initial description is a little unclear, is the film advancing or not?

Take your back loaded with backing paper, advance to 1 and confirm pin comes out and stays out (does not fall back when upside down)
Take shot -1-. Start cranking with the body winder, 1 click at a time. The first part of the cycle gradualy drops the back metal curtain while advancing the film in the back. The film counter in the back should be advancing incrementally with each click of the body winder. The curtain will eventually close, then the lens aperture will start opening up (image will start to appear in the view finder). On my body, I feel/hear the back pin pop out just before or nearly the same time that the lens aperture fully opens. A couple of blank clicks later and then a "ker chunk" as the lens mount does something I don't understand yet and the film advance cycle completes. You could do the same, taking the back off once in a while during the cycle, to confirm when/if the pin comes out.

If your back is stuck at -1-, and therefore the pin is not locked (falls in and out), you could try removing the back, advancing with the back winder to frame -2- to pop out the pin, remount the back, and finish the cycle with the body wind crank.

There is also a service manual online, if you are so inclined and are good with lots and lots of tiny screws...

Roy Keane · Oct 4, 2021

Rowreidr said:
The back pin test you did only confirms that manually advancing via the back wind crank, resets the pin, but does not confirm the body wind crank is resetting the pin after each shot. Your initial description is a little unclear, is the film advancing or not?

Take your back loaded with backing paper, advance to 1 and confirm pin comes out and stays out (does not fall back when upside down)
Confirmed

Take shot -1-.
i can't. The shutter is not cocked, despite the fact that the film wound to the correct point.

Unless I switch to Continuous Mirror Up. So, for this exercise, I did that. I wound and it cocked the shutter.

Start cranking with the body winder, 1 click at a time. The first part of the cycle gradualy drops the back metal curtain while advancing the film in the back. The film counter in the back should be advancing incrementally with each click of the body winder.
confirmed, as far as I can tell by the feel of it.

If I take the film back off, put the camera in continuous mirror up, what I see is the cranking and winding feels right, the action of the mirror and black back shade feel right, but the pin does nothing. stays fully extended and nothing draws it back in

Will definitely try to find the service manual

Rowreidr · Oct 4, 2021

I know how to use, but don't understand how CMU mode works, so I can't comment on that. But, back to beginning.

- Back loaded separate from body and cranked to -1 via back crank, popping the pin.
- Mount back onto body (in normal mode) .
- Wind body crank to cock shutter.
Is this where things fail and your body crank just keeps going?
Assuming so,
- Take back off and do the screwdriver trick to see if you can complete the cycle. If that works, can you replace the back and take a shot? What happens after?

In terms of when in the cycle, the back pin turns flaccid, I will have to check later tonight at home.

Roy Keane · Oct 4, 2021

Rowreidr said:
I know how to use, but don't understand how CMU mode works, so I can't comment on that. But, back to beginning.

- Back loaded separate from body and cranked to -1 via back crank, popping the pin.
- Mount back onto body (in normal mode) .
- Wind body crank to cock shutter.
Is this where things fail and your body crank just keeps going?
Assuming so,
- Take back off and do the screwdriver trick to see if you can complete the cycle. If that works, can you replace the back and take a shot? What happens after?

In terms of when in the cycle, the back pin turns flaccid, I will have to check later tonight at home.

Is this where things fail and your body crank just keeps going?

precisely

- Take back off and do the screwdriver trick to see if you can complete the cycle. If that works, can you replace the back and take a shot? What happens after?

I can only complete the cycle if I keep pressing the pin with the screwdriver, so I can't take a shot with the film back on. Unless it's in mirror up mode

Rowreidr · Oct 4, 2021

Got it, I forgot about this video, I tried to help someone on youtube. Different issue, but they took some nice video of the cycle, with the right panel removed, so you can see all the gears and springs in action. At the beginning, you can see when the pin is locked (0:15). Doesn't seem to move when the shutter is released (0:35). Because of a broken spring, he has to manually push back the "lock" (1:04) which resets the pin (making it flaccid), The pin becomes erect again as he winds to the next frame (1:19)

Hopefully this is helpful

Roy Keane · Oct 4, 2021

Rowreidr said:
Got it, I forgot about this video, I tried to help someone on youtube. Different issue, but they took some nice video of the cycle, with the right panel removed, so you can see all the gears and springs in action. At the beginning, you can see when the pin is locked (0:15). Doesn't seem to move when the shutter is released (0:35). Because of a broken spring, he has to manually push back the "lock" (1:04) which resets the pin (making it flaccid), The pin becomes erect again as he winds to the next frame (1:19)

Hopefully this is helpful

Holy smokes, that's so helpful.

I have a new body coming in the mail. I'm not confident about monkeying with this body until I get the next one and know it solves the problem. When (hopefully) that happens, I'll figure out how to open up the broken one and watch this video 10000 times to figure it out.

Thanks very much for sharing that

Rowreidr · Oct 4, 2021

Best of luck! If you are able, consider documenting your repair.

Roy Keane · Oct 4, 2021

will do

reddesert · Oct 6, 2021

Nice video. To my knowledge there is no service manual easily available on the internet for the Bronica SQ (unless there's one out there beyond the reach of Google). However, there are some ETR/ETRS manuals at https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?category=2&secondary=33 One nice thing about these manuals is that they aren't just giant exploded views, but list common problems and tell the repair tech what to look for, including problems like "camera doesn't stop winding." It's likely that the mechanism inside the SQ is not identical but somewhat similar to the ETRS.

Rowreidr · Oct 7, 2021

Just to follow up reddesert. Here's a nice video with the ETRS, which does look similar

Bronica SQ-A problem - help!

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