Bronica GS-1 Film Advance Issue

[noahsmith]

Hi everyone,

I'm having an issue with a Bronica GS-1 I just purchased off ebay. The seller assured me everything worked properly but after testing out the camera, there is definitely a film advance issue happening.

I've uploaded a video explaining the issue which was originally intended for the seller to view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0tr4uh6Eyo&feature=youtu.be). Sorry if I seem a little annoyed - it has just been very frustrating trying to figure out what's happening.

Basically, everytime I load the camera and try to advance the film, the counter on the film back is not moving correctly and it also feels like there is too much tension in the film when im moving it forward. I've tried advancing the film with the manual knob on top of the back, i've tried with the film winding crank, and with the speed grip and none of them have fixed the issue.

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[chassis]

Not familiar with this camera, so just a suggestion: can you manipulate the film advance mechanism without film in the camera? Might help isolate where the issue is.

 

[noahsmith]

Not familiar with this camera, so just a suggestion: can you manipulate the film advance mechanism without film in the camera? Might help isolate where the issue is.

Not sure if you saw the video I posted but I tried to advance the lever without film in it by using the multi exposure function and it works fine, the problem happens when film is put into the 6x7 back.

 

[Truzi]

I've had a GS-1 for a few years, with very few problems, so I don't have any really good suggestions. I'm tempted to say the issue is in the back itself - there are some interlocks that "sense" that film is loaded in the back, and they may be malfunctioning. You can try looking at the surface of the back that mates with the camera, with the dark-slide out, and see if there is anything obvious. You can use a paperclip to push a plunger that will unlock the dark-slide. I believe a similar plunger/pin "detects" film is in the back (sorry, I don't have one in front of me at the moment to check).
Do you know anyone nearby with a GS-1 that would allow you to test a different back?

When I got mine off ebay, one of the electrical contact pins for the lens was a bit stuck, but I managed to work it loose and it has not caused any issues. Gently work any pins/levers you find on the back and the film insert - but don't force them.

Stop using fresh rolls. If you have left-over backing paper, use that to test - or if you consider the rolls you've already run through as ruined, just re-use them (re-roll them correctly) to test. You are probably better off asking for a return, though (unless you got an incredible deal, then you may just consider buying another back).

Also, when you use the advance on the body without the back, it sounds a little "off" to me... but I could be mistaken on that (the sound quality is better than most youtube videos I watch - good job).

 

[noahsmith]

I've had a GS-1 for a few years, with very few problems, so I don't have any really good suggestions. I'm tempted to say the issue is in the back itself - there are some interlocks that "sense" that film is loaded in the back, and they may be malfunctioning. You can try looking at the surface of the back that mates with the camera, with the dark-slide out, and see if there is anything obvious. You can use a paperclip to push a plunger that will unlock the dark-slide. I believe a similar plunger/pin "detects" film is in the back (sorry, I don't have one in front of me at the moment to check).
Do you know anyone nearby with a GS-1 that would allow you to test a different back?

When I got mine off ebay, one of the electrical contact pins for the lens was a bit stuck, but I managed to work it loose and it has not caused any issues. Gently work any pins/levers you find on the back and the film insert - but don't force them.

Stop using fresh rolls. If you have left-over backing paper, use that to test - or if you consider the rolls you've already run through as ruined, just re-use them (re-roll them correctly) to test. You are probably better off asking for a return, though (unless you got an incredible deal, then you may just consider buying another back).

Also, when you use the advance on the body without the back, it sounds a little "off" to me... but I could be mistaken on that (the sound quality is better than most youtube videos I watch - good job).

Thanks for the suggestions, I just tried using the backing paper on the roll and doing some troubleshooting but nothing seems to be working. When I have the backing paper loaded, the counter number actually doesnt even move now it just goes from "s" to the white line and never gets to number 1. I bought the camera for $550 which included the 100mm, 200mm and 65mm lens. Along with the grip, and AE finder. Would it be worth me trying to buy a new back for around $90?

 

[Alan Gales]

Thanks for the suggestions, I just tried using the backing paper on the roll and doing some troubleshooting but nothing seems to be working. When I have the backing paper loaded, the counter number actually doesnt even move now it just goes from "s" to the white line and never gets to number 1. I bought the camera for $550 which included the 100mm, 200mm and 65mm lens. Along with the grip, and AE finder. Would it be worth me trying to buy a new back for around $90?

Oh, you're the one that won that auction. Looked like a bargain to me.

I'd explain to the Seller what is going on. If you can quickly pick up another back I think it would be worth it. If the camera still doesn't work then you could return it to the Ebay Seller and sell the new back for close to what you paid.

There is an APUG Seller here in the buy it now section selling a GS-1 with 2 lenses for $500.00. I just wanted to make you aware.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[noahsmith]

Oh, you're the one that won that auction. Looked like a bargain to me.

I'd explain to the Seller what is going on. If you can quickly pick up another back I think it would be worth it. If the camera still doesn't work then you could return it to the Ebay Seller and sell the new back for close to what you paid.

There is an APUG Seller here in the buy it now section selling a GS-1 with 2 lenses for $500.00. I just wanted to make you aware.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I thought it was a good deal too but it's becoming clear the film back isn't working. The issue is that the seller doesn't offer returns, I've been messaging him and he's trying to troubleshoot with me but I'd rather not have to go through ebay to try and get a return.

 

[noahsmith]

There is an APUG Seller here in the buy it now section selling a GS-1 with 2 lenses for $500.00. I just wanted to make you aware.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

thanks for letting me know about the other camera

 

[Truzi]

Caveat: I barely qualify as a hobbyist - I just take snapshots and prefer film, so filter my advice through that. I'm not even adept at the equipment I own.

That said, look at the prices for those lenses - I'd say you got a decent deal, providing everything else is in good shape. The 65mm and 200mm seem to demand a high price. I was lucky and picked up an NOS 65mm for $250 - but have seen them go for as much used. The 100mm doesn't demand what the 110mm does, but still isn't cheap.

The problem is evident even when you do not attach the back to the camera, so it's likely the back - but you don't know if the body or lenses are good, and can't until you have a working back.
I'd hate to tell you to drop another $90 just to test it. You'd have to hope a new back was good - and only then could you test the rest of your equipment. It would be better to borrow one if you can find someone near you (I'm in Ohio, so am of no use).

There are plenty of APUG threads on how sellers often don't know what they have. Giving the benefit of the doubt, if the seller just tested the shutter and general function, he or she may not have known what to look for. I'd gently open a dialog with the seller and go from there.

On no - this is turning into one of my Epic Posts, lol.

I just pulled out a known-good back and loaded backing paper. Here is what I tried:
- Film insert with paper, but not in the back - I can wind but the counter never moves.
- Film insert with paper IN the back, but back is open - I can wind but the counter never moves.
- Film insert with paper in back, and back latched closed - the counter DOES move as I advance. So, it is likely related to closing the back.

Now the hard part - I needed an extra hand, so enlisted the help of my mother:
Take just the insert, hold it so the film (if loaded) would be facing away from you - the counter window will be at your lower right.
Now rotate the insert so you are looking at the left side (where the take-up reel is). The insert has channels at the top and bottom that the back's door fits in as a light trap. On the left side, you should see a metal tab in each channel. When the door closes, it presses in on these tabs. I held these tabs down with a couple paper clips and had my mother turn the advance knob - the counter worked. Releasing just one of these tabs disengages the counter gearing.

And that's why I save backing paper, lol.

Check your insert to make sure these tabs are present and not bent, and check the back to make sure the door is not bent where it would contact the tabs, and that the door latches securely. It could also be linkage within the back that is broken. Don't modify the back in case you return the equipment. However, if you can find a way to fake it and make the back advance, you might be able to test the rest of your outfit, and thus decide what to do.

There are people on APUG far better at these things than I, so hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

[btaylor]

You got a great deal on that GS 1 it looks like. Why not buy a back from KEH or some other eBay seller and try it? If that takes care of it you still got a good deal.

 

[noahsmith]

I just pulled out a known-good back and loaded backing paper. Here is what I tried:
- Film insert with paper, but not in the back - I can wind but the counter never moves.
- Film insert with paper IN the back, but back is open - I can wind but the counter never moves.
- Film insert with paper in back, and back latched closed - the counter DOES move as I advance. So, it is likely related to closing the back.

Now the hard part - I needed an extra hand, so enlisted the help of my mother:
Take just the insert, hold it so the film (if loaded) would be facing away from you - the counter window will be at your lower right.
Now rotate the insert so you are looking at the left side (where the take-up reel is). The insert has channels at the top and bottom that the back's door fits in as a light trap. On the left side, you should see a metal tab in each channel. When the door closes, it presses in on these tabs. I held these tabs down with a couple paper clips and had my mother turn the advance knob - the counter worked. Releasing just one of these tabs disengages the counter gearing.

And that's why I save backing paper, lol.

Check your insert to make sure these tabs are present and not bent, and check the back to make sure the door is not bent where it would contact the tabs, and that the door latches securely. It could also be linkage within the back that is broken. Don't modify the back in case you return the equipment. However, if you can find a way to fake it and make the back advance, you might be able to test the rest of your outfit, and thus decide what to do.

There are people on APUG far better at these things than I, so hopefully someone else will chime in.

Thank you so much for being thorough and offering suggestions/help, I REALLY appreciate it. I've done more troubleshooting and I'm still not sure where I'm at with figuring out this issue. I've attached three images, the first showing one of the pins on the film back which i have circled in the image.
After loading the backing paper and then attaching the film into the film back, I pressed the pin down with a little screw driver and I was able to advance the counter but it wasn't stopping at individual numbers, it was just letting me keep advance it but I was able to see multiple numbers which was a first. I'm not sure what this tells us though. The other two images show the tabs you were referring to and the film back door, everything looks good to me and the tabs definitely move when the door is closed, so it's hitting it properly. Again, thank you so much for your help.

 

[Johnkpap]

I have one of these cameras an it looks to be a faulty film back and would most likely be just the insert, buy another and all will be good
you can find a good one for less than $199

Johnkpap

 

[itsdoable]

It sounds like you have a faulty film insert. The film should advance easily when loaded, either by the knob or body crank. Indexing the film is done by the supply side roller. With the insert in the open back, if you can hold in the pins that sense the back is closed, and turn the roller with you finger, it should 1) turn easily, and 2) advance the counter.

The ideal test is to find another back or insert locally and see if it will advance a film (or paper only) properly. Then you can ask for a discount on the faulty back, and buy another back and/or get the one you have fixed - it would not be unusual if the film indexing mechanism is sticky from old grease or a bent part. It seems you got a decent deal on your kit, so it's worth keeping once this is sorted out.

 

[Truzi]

I think we're nearing the end of my ability, lol.

Too Long, Didn't Read:
What you did resulted in normal functioning. Holding that pin down will let you continuously advance the film and counter.
If you don't hold it down, it should only advance to the next frame, incrementing the counter, and then stop - though the winding knob itself does not lock (it can keep spinning), the rest of the mechanism should stop at the next frame.

There is also a chance that if you keep poking at it, it may start to work. If so, I don't think I'd trust it for anything important, but at least you could test everything else.

-----

I tried a few more things, but could not replicate your issue. Look at picture 1. Notice the pin at the right lower corner. I believe that is what allows you to remove the back from the camera. If the dark-slide is removed, the pin falls back, and you should not be able to remove the back from the camera (saving your film). On the right side is a small rectangular metal tab. Press that in and you can remove the slide (and the pin I mentioned retracts). You'll notice a small tang on the removed dark-slide that basically pushes this pin into place, letting the body "know" it's safe to disconnect.
To replace the slide, you have to press the tab - you are acting like the surface of the camera body.

With the slide removed you can see if the paper moves when you advance. This is important, as you can always spin the winding knob on the back. When film gets to the next frame it should stop advancing, but the knob can still spin (this is normal).

I pressed the pin you circled - both with the back open and closed (and also just on the insert). It seems to release the advance-lock when you push it in. A rod probably engages it momentarily when you fire the shutter. Holding it in will allow the film to advance continuously.

On a working back:
- If you hold that pin in, you can continually advance the film and the counter will keep moving.
- If you release the pin, the advance should stop, and the counter stop moving, once you get to the next frame. However, you can still spin the winding knob, but everything else should be stopped.
- One simple press on that pin (then remove the screw driver) and it should advance the film to the next frame as well as increment the counter to the next number, and stop - though you can still spin the winding knob.

If the rod in the body is continuously pushing in, the back would never stop advancing, but the counter should also keep rolling.

There is something I can't account for. Look only at the insert. Above the gear is a rectangular piece of metal with holes on either side. I don't know if this is of significance, but the ridge on the back itself seems to accommodate this - though gently poking I cannot get anything to move.

 

[noahsmith]

With the slide removed you can see if the paper moves when you advance. This is important, as you can always spin the winding knob on the back. When film gets to the next frame it should stop advancing, but the knob can still spin (this is normal).

Thanks so much for your help, really appreciate it! So I just tested this out and I could see the paper moving but the actually number counter stayed at "S."Does this tell us anything? Maybe the counter window is just messed up? I've talked to the seller and he refunded me the amount for a new back which I have purchased off ebay, should be here by this Friday - so we shall see.

 

[Truzi]

Yes, probably some of the linkage within the back is damaged. The gearing that counts the frame and locks isn't working. Glad to hear the seller has worked with you. Let us know how things go when you get the new back.

 

[noahsmith]

Yes, probably some of the linkage within the back is damaged. The gearing that counts the frame and locks isn't working. Glad to hear the seller has worked with you. Let us know how things go when you get the new back.

I will for sure! I actually took apart the film insert and looked at all the gears of it. I tried tinkering around with it to see if something looked obviously wrong but it's still not working. Ohwell, I'm still determined to get it to work one of these days!

 

[John Koehrer]

I thought it was a good deal too but it's becoming clear the film back isn't working. The issue is that the seller doesn't offer returns, I've been messaging him and he's trying to troubleshoot with me but I'd rather not have to go through ebay to try and get a return.

Ebays policy doesn't care whether the seller accepts returns or not. They wrote the rules and
they'll force a return. it's "not as described".

But now, that you've taken the thing apart that would pretty much void the
agreement.
Ethically now, it's yours.

 

[Toffle]

Before you do anything more, you should drop Jimmy Koh a line. He's one of the go-to guys for Bronicas, and is very helpful. (I think he's still around... his website is still up http://kohscamera.com/ ) If it's just a back you need, he can probably provide one fairly easily. I know my GS-1 did not like some of the less-flexible films... the ironically named Lucky SHD comes to mind. The Bronica has a very sharp reverse bend in its film path that can separate the film from the backing paper, resulting in an accordion of film scrunched up in the film back before you realize that you've got a problem.

Best of luck to you.

Cheers,
Tom

[EDIT] Jimmy Koh has retired, but it wouldn't hurt to give the shop a call. There is still a contact number listed.

 

[noahsmith]

Before you do anything more, you should drop Jimmy Koh a line. He's one of the go-to guys for Bronicas, and is very helpful. (I think he's still around... his website is still up http://kohscamera.com/ ) If it's just a back you need, he can probably provide one fairly easily. I know my GS-1 did not like some of the less-flexible films... the ironically named Lucky SHD comes to mind. The Bronica has a very sharp reverse bend in its film path that can separate the film from the backing paper, resulting in an accordion of film scrunched up in the film back before you realize that you've got a problem.

Best of luck to you.

Cheers,
Tom

[EDIT] Jimmy Koh has retired, but it wouldn't hurt to give the shop a call. There is still a contact number listed.

Thanks so much for the tip, I really appreciate that!

 

[noahsmith]

Yes, probably some of the linkage within the back is damaged. The gearing that counts the frame and locks isn't working. Glad to hear the seller has worked with you. Let us know how things go when you get the new back.

New film back is supposed to be here in a few hours - excited to test! I had another question I thought I would ask, I saw on ebay a few days ago a Bronica GS-1 with a Rollei 6006 waist level finder which I thought was odd. I've included pictures of it below. Trying to find a Bronica WF for the GS-1 is super hard and was just curious if its possible to use other branded waist levels?

 

[noahsmith]

Yes, probably some of the linkage within the back is damaged. The gearing that counts the frame and locks isn't working. Glad to hear the seller has worked with you. Let us know how things go when you get the new back.

Good news! The new film back works! So glad it wasn't an issue with the camera. Thanks so much for your help - always super grateful to the photography community for being willing to offer suggestions and help.

 

[Truzi]

New film back is supposed to be here in a few hours - excited to test! I had another question I thought I would ask, I saw on ebay a few days ago a Bronica GS-1 with a Rollei 6006 waist level finder which I thought was odd. I've included pictures of it below. Trying to find a Bronica WF for the GS-1 is super hard and was just curious if its possible to use other branded waist levels?

I saw that on ebay too. I don't know much about the cameras, though, so I can't really answer your question. I merely own and use one, lol.
Looking at those photos of the Rollei finder, you can see the person taped the gaps - presumably to keep light from making it hard to see the ground glass. I would suspect anything that would "fit" might work. You could probably fake it with some tape and cardboard (and a magnifying glass) until you find a proper WLF for it.

Glad to hear everything is working. It is a very nice camera. Keep that bad unit for parts in case you ever need to repair something. Sometimes just the insert comes up on ebay for a good price, so that could help too. Just mark the bad one so you don't accidentally use it.