Bronica ETRSi unwanted multiple exposure problem

I have a Bronica ETRSi, I've had it for about 6 months. I enjoy using it, although I don't use it as often I would like to. This is a problem that first appeared a couple of months ago, then seemed to go away but has reared its head again.

While on a walk yesterday I noticed that the frame number wasn't advancing past 9 when being wound. I tried messing about with controls but couldn't get it to advance so it went in my bag for the rest of my walk.

When I got home I took the back off and started rewinding (winding forward?) with the crank and noticed there was very little tension on the winder. I then had a look at the camera, and messed about with the multiple exposure lever. I noticed when using the multiple exposure lever it releases a pin inside the camera.
Looking at the back I noticed a receiving pin for the multiple exposure function, this pin on the back seemed to flop about when the back is moved.
Using something I pointed I pushed the pin and the winder seemed to engage the film properly, I put the back on the camera and fired off the last couple of shots.

Now I have a few of questions:
1. Has anyone seen this before? I couldn't see much on google
2. Does this seem like a back problem? I'm hoping this is a problem with the back rather than the body.
3. Should the multiple-exposure pin on the film-back be able to move about so freely? Is anyone able to confirm with their own filmback

Thanks!

Hi I had a similar problem and it was caused by the insert part of the back, I replaced the faulty insert and all was good,
Do you have a spare back or insert you can try?can you borrow one?
If not it is the cheapest option is buy another back:- backs cost less than a body and it is nice to have spare, if this does not fix it then you know the body is faulty.

Hope this helps

Johnkpap.

Johnkpap said:

Hi I had a similar problem and it was caused by the insert part of the back, I replaced the faulty insert and all was good,
Do you have a spare back or insert you can try?can you borrow one?
If not it is the cheapest option is buy another back:- backs cost less than a body and it is nice to have spare, if this does not fix it then you know the body is faulty.

Hope this helps

Johnkpap.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I hadn't considered the insert.
I only have the one back so can't test it against another, and with it being an intermittent problem it might not even appear. I've probably had 5-6 rolls through it since it last happened. My local shop does have an ETRS for sale, I might ask if I can compare my back to theirs to see I can see any difference.
An additional back was on the shopping list, so I'll probably end up picking one up at some point.

I use my ETRSi quite frequently , its an enjoyable camera and the lens are superb. I've never had this problem . I checked my backs and the multiple exposure pin is loose , on my backs. The multiple exposure pin in the camera is loose when the multiple exposure lever is set for multiple exposures and the film winding gears also move into the camera body- away from the film winding gear in the film back. When the multiple exposure lever is moved to the red dot(off) the multiple exposure pin in the body moves flush with the camera body and is solid -- the winding gear also moves back in position to engage with the film back gear to advance the film.

This is how my backs and camera are. Hope I have explained it clearly .

I am talking about the pin being loose on the back , not the cylinder which the pin is in .The pin slides back and forth loosely inside the cylinder. If your cylinder and pin is loose , I'd venture to guess your back needs work.

absalom1951 said:

I use my ETRSi quite frequently , its an enjoyable camera and the lens are superb. I've never had this problem . I checked my backs and the multiple exposure pin is loose , on my backs. The multiple exposure pin in the camera is loose when the multiple exposure lever is set for multiple exposures and the film winding gears also move into the camera body- away from the film winding gear in the film back. When the multiple exposure lever is moved to the red dot(off) the multiple exposure pin in the body moves flush with the camera body and is solid -- the winding gear also moves back in position to engage with the film back gear to advance the film.

This is how my backs and camera are. Hope I have explained it clearly .

I am talking about the pin being loose on the back , not the cylinder which the pin is in .The pin slides back and forth loosely inside the cylinder. If your cylinder and pin is loose , I'd venture to guess your back needs work.

Click to expand...

Thanks, what you've written makes perfect sense. I can't confirm the behaviour of my body and back right now, but will tonight. Although I do believe the cylinders are solid, it's just the pins that seemed loose. Your post is also helpful in explaining what happens when the lever is used.
I'm not sure if it's worth noting; the winder on the back rotates while this is happening, does it normally rotate during multiple-exposure winding?

And finally if I were to buy a another back, is there any compatibility issues? Do I have to use an ETRSi back or will an ETR back be fine?

I very much enjoy using the camera, I've the 75mm and an MC 50mm and as long as I do my part (not pointing the 50 at the sun) I've had some lovely prints from it.

I have an ETRSi with three different backs; those backs are interchangeable.
From camera-wiki :

ETR series - backs and inserts

The roll film backs and inserts have small changes in material construction through the life of the system but are all interchangeable and compatible with one another. All the backs have a film reminder tab holder, insert release latch and a darkslide system. The first versions have a single top release latch with a leatherette patch. Later versions are similar but the leather changed to an arrow marking. The final version has the locking dark slides and dual release latches with triangular arrow markings.

The inserts all have a automatic resetting exposure counter with a winder. The original winders feature a large half-circular flip up crank while other versions have smaller cranks, and one version does not have a crank at all, but a more basic winding knob.

I vaguely recall a thread a few years back where one of the Bronica models -- not sure if it was ETRxx or SQ-x -- was giving a guy fits and it turned out the little multi-exposure lever was cracked and, in his case, not turning the shaft at all. That meant if it was in multi-exposure, it stayed there even when he thought he moved it. May not have anything to do with the OP's problem but does suggest a close inspection of some of the visible controls. Those little beasties contain a remarkable amount of complexity with the various interlocks, etc.

I do like my SQ-A for "really serious" work but find myself picking up my Yashica TLR for its simplicity in more casual walk-abouts.

DWThomas said:

... Those little beasties contain a remarkable amount of complexity with the various interlocks, etc. ...

Click to expand...

True! There are various operating errors possible with the ETR series cameras. The manual is an absolute 'must-have'.

macfred said:

I have an ETRSi with three different backs; those backs are interchangeable.
From camera-wiki :

ETR series - backs and inserts

The roll film backs and inserts have small changes in material construction through the life of the system but are all interchangeable and compatible with one another. All the backs have a film reminder tab holder, insert release latch and a darkslide system. The first versions have a single top release latch with a leatherette patch. Later versions are similar but the leather changed to an arrow marking. The final version has the locking dark slides and dual release latches with triangular arrow markings.

The inserts all have a automatic resetting exposure counter with a winder. The original winders feature a large half-circular flip up crank while other versions have smaller cranks, and one version does not have a crank at all, but a more basic winding knob.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I thought that was the case, but it's good to have it confirmed

DWThomas said:

I vaguely recall a thread a few years back where one of the Bronica models -- not sure if it was ETRxx or SQ-x -- was giving a guy fits and it turned out the little multi-exposure lever was cracked and, in his case, not turning the shaft at all. That meant if it was in multi-exposure, it stayed there even when he thought he moved it. May not have anything to do with the OP's problem but does suggest a close inspection of some of the visible controls. Those little beasties contain a remarkable amount of complexity with the various interlocks, etc.

I do like my SQ-A for "really serious" work but find myself picking up my Yashica TLR for its simplicity in more casual walk-abouts.

Click to expand...

That's another thing to check, thanks. Although I think the lever is okay.

And it does seem a very complex device, which probably doesn't help a great deal in troubleshooting. It took me a couple of rolls before I was getting images I really liked, I think in part because of the complexity, shooting initially felt less natural. I haven't done much work using MLU for the same reason.
I've since settled into a groove with it, yesterday was going perfectly until it stopped advancing. And I'm happy with the shots I did get out of it yesterday (first time with Pancro 400, it's rather nice)

DWThomas said:

I vaguely recall a thread a few years back where one of the Bronica models -- not sure if it was ETRxx or SQ-x -- was giving a guy fits and it turned out the little multi-exposure lever was cracked and, in his case, not turning the shaft at all. That meant if it was in multi-exposure, it stayed there even when he thought he moved it. May not have anything to do with the OP's problem but does suggest a close inspection of some of the visible controls. Those little beasties contain a remarkable amount of complexity with the various interlocks, etc.

I do like my SQ-A for "really serious" work but find myself picking up my Yashica TLR for its simplicity in more casual walk-abouts.

Click to expand...

This is a fact. The Bronica folks went from a metal lever to a plastic lever when moving from ETRS to ETRSi, same is true with the SQ series. I had to buy a junk body to get a multi-exposure lever for my SQ-AI . It's easy to get this mispositioned. I have had a lot of Bronica stuff over the years, pretty reliable stuff, if it's the back pin a drop of solvent might free things up, I have a tiny bottle of Kodak movie film cleaner. Good, banned, solvent. I fixed a shutter and a Hassleblad back that were gummed up. Be careful.

Sounds like the OP may have got things going, if it's working great.

I had a look in my junk camera parts box and the broken back insert was still there......it is the model with the plastic wind knob, my other Backs are the older type with the fold out metal handle none of those have never failed. From memory I paid about $50 AUD for a good used insert.

Johnkpap

^Another small point I'll mention is to make sure it's one of the later backs ( twin release latches vs the older single latch ) that you
might consider replacing it with . Peter

mshchem said:

This is a fact. The Bronica folks went from a metal lever to a plastic lever when moving from ETRS to ETRSi, same is true with the SQ series. I had to buy a junk body to get a multi-exposure lever for my SQ-AI . It's easy to get this mispositioned. I have had a lot of Bronica stuff over the years, pretty reliable stuff, if it's the back pin a drop of solvent might free things up, I have a tiny bottle of Kodak movie film cleaner. Good, banned, solvent. I fixed a shutter and a Hassleblad back that were gummed up. Be careful.

Sounds like the OP may have got things going, if it's working great.

Click to expand...

I have a habit of breaking those plastic levers on my ETRSi's. They should have made them beefier. I got the metal lever off a junk ETRS and it fit perfectly- problem solved permanently.