Bronica ETRSi questions

I plan to get a Bronica ETRSi later this year, and have a few basic questions.

1. Since the format is 6 x 4.5, will the photos I take with the camera held horizontally be in landscape format (as I assume the film is advanced horizontally)?

2. In the 35mm format, a standard normal lens, usually a 50mm comes with a max aperture around 2 (1.7 - 1.9). With medium format SLRs, it seems like they all come with f/2.8 instead. Is that due to lens design issues, or simply because faster lenses are not sought after in MF?

Henrik

1. Yes. (The film is advanced vertically though).

2. Fast lenses need bigger bits of glass. The bigger the glass, the more expensive it is.
Lenses covering larger formats need bigger bits of glass.
So fast lenses covering large formats would be rather expensive.

And do we really need fast lenses?
I don't.

Remember too that DoF is a function of image scale. Larger formats and their longer lenses produce larger images (for any given angle of view), so DoF will be reduced already.

Hi Henrik, if you haven't used a 645 camera it would help if you could try one or more before buying - very different in basic form to a 35mm. slr's handling.
Left hand supports the camera & releases shutter, right hand focuses. Some people hate it. A right hand grip or winder fixes this.
Waist-level finder is OK for landscape format (image is reversed left-to-right though) but in portrait format it's very awkward to use. Prism finders fix this and come with or without meter, AE versions are available.
Winder and prism make a 645 much more like 35mm. in handling.
I would also consider the Mamiyas - more of them for sale, easier to find lenses, backs etc. - and more reliable/cheaper to repair.

Henrik,

As was pointed out, the ETRSi is in landscape mode by default, and it does advance the film in vertical fashion. The wide apertures popular in 35mm format lenses are more an effort by the designers to achieve the option of very shallow depth of field, rather than to simply provide low light performance. The physical nature of the various formats dictates that a 35mm format lens must be about 1 full stop faster than a lens with identical angle of view that is made for the larger 6x4.5-6x6 format in order to achieve the same shallow depth of field. A 35mm format lens has to be faster by more than one stop in order to achieve the same depth of field as a lens with the same angle of view built for a 6x7 format camera.

That's why larger format lenses tend to have smaller maximum apertures than a similar angle of view 35mm format lens. They just don't need gaping wide apertures, so they don't need to compromise other lens design elements in order to get there! The other advantage to 6x4.5, 6x6, and even more so in 6x7 format over the FF 35mm format is that lenses can be designed with emphasis on correcting defects, rather than ultra high resolving power. A 35mm format lens needs to resolve from 25%-50% more lines per mm than the various medium format lenses of the same angle of view, simply because the image captured at the film plane/sensor of a 35mm camera will have to be enlarged far more than the image captured on various medium format cameras, even when comparing a standard 4"x6" Wall Mart print between the various formats.

Some of the above are points of denial for many folks, but it is well documented. Even the Hasselblad site, while being careful not to promote the 6x7 format that they do not offer , has some very fine tutorials dealing with the relationships of various imaging formats.

I own an ETRSi, and an SQ-Am in the Bronica line. They are great cameras, but I agree with the other post about Mamiya. It is a current brand, as opposed to a dead brand, and I really like Mamiya lenses. My mainstay medium format kit is the Mamiya RZ67. The SQ-Am, ETRSi, and 500ELX systems I have built up over the decades are second choices that I only tap when weight is the key driving factor. That said, the ETRSi is a great 6x4.5 system, and has a very robust body build. It is also dirt cheap on the used market, and if that's what tickles you, go for it! Moving up from 35mm format, it will make you smile like a school boy looking at his first love.

Voyager

Thank you for your answers, especially Voyager for the very detailed walkthrough. I have considered the Mamiyas, both 645 and RB/RZ, but they cost more than I am currently willing to spend. Also, the RB/RZ's seems to be too heavy for my liking.

My entry into medium format was with an Agfa Isolette V. Not the easiest camera to shoot with, focusing especially is an issue, but when I developed my first roll, and saw the huge negatives, I was sold. As I prefer SLRs to rangefinders in 35mm, I started looking for a MF SLR. After considering many options from 645 to 67 format, I have more or less decided on the ETRSi. In my budget, I will be able to get it with an AE II prism, speedgrip, extra back, and later a 150mm.

If cost is a problem have a look at kiev 60 88. and the upgraded versions Arax photo do, there's a good range of lens and other bits and pieces

bob

Henrik,

Also ensure that you get the proper silver oxide [4SR44] batteries or its alkaline counterpart 4LR44 for the Bronica to ensure that all the shutter speeds and not just 1/500 are available.

The Zenzanon lenses rock -- try to get hold of the 40 / f 4 if possible

Cheers
Deb

Hi Necator,

Being a newish ETRSi shooter myself, I agree with your choice!

In the MF SLR range, the Bronica ETR system is a phenomenal bargain. I did a lot of research and put a lot of thought into the choice (over more than a year.) Based on my needs, I seriously considered an aged Hassy, the Kievs and Mamiyas. Considering the ridiculously low prices, the ETR has great IQ, and reliability seems very good (especially compared to a Kiev or a long-in-the-tooth Hassy.) I never ran across any actual reliability complaints from anyone who used the ETR in real life. For me, the electronic leaf shutters in every lens are very attractive and seem like a reliable system that should lessen the need for regular CLAs. The prices are so low that I could afford a nice setup with plenty of accessories, including a backup body. Dead system or not, there are a lot of these units out there, so there are plenty of backups and spares available. Enjoy your choice!

I don't know about where you are, but here, there are generally two Mamiyas for sale for every Bronica, and the prices for the two systems used are the same. I had a Bronica ETRS, but sold it because I preferred my Mamiya M645. I could get an 80mm f/1.9 lens for it, and it was a tad less quirky (the mirror staying up after each shot with my Bronica always struck me as weird).

I personally shoot Hasselblad 6x6 but have used the ETRsi. I think it's a great camera - small, light, nice ergonomically and the lenses are great (and cheap!) I am thinking of picking one up to complement the square format at some stage - especially at their current prices! Yes they are relatively hard to fix, but there are plenty available and you can afford to buy a backup body and back at some stage. Your questions have been answered perfectly so all you have to do now is find a nice one to buy ;-) My only tiny bit of advice is that if you like the idea of using a waist level finder, find a kit that has one because they are expensive to buy separately (about the only bit of ETR kit that seems that way).

suzyj, I'm in Toronto, Canada.

The North American prices for ETR kit are ridiculously low -- often much less than 35mm equipment. I see as many Bronicas as Mamiyas, but the Bronnies seem to go for almost half the price. (ETR only -- the 6x6 equipment has held more value.)

suzyj said:

I don't know about where you are, but here, there are generally two Mamiyas for sale for every Bronica, and the prices for the two systems used are the same. I had a Bronica ETRS, but sold it because I preferred my Mamiya M645.

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...probably because Mamiya still makes cameras, but Tamron shut down Bronica not long after buying it!

suzyj said:

I could get an 80mm f/1.9 lens for it, and it was a tad less quirky (the mirror staying up after each shot with my Bronica always struck me as weird).

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All SLRs used to have mirrors which stayed up until the film advanced, back in the 1950's. The auto return reflex mirror came about in the 1960's. The worshipped Hasselblad is like the Bronica, without instant return mirror.

wiltw said:

The worshipped Hasselblad is like the Bronica, without instant return mirror.

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Unless, of course, you get one of the worshipped Hasselblads with instant return mirror.

mesh said:

My only tiny bit of advice is that if you like the idea of using a waist level finder, find a kit that has one because they are expensive to buy separately (about the only bit of ETR kit that seems that way).

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You noticed that too? I could never figure that out. You can buy W/L finders for the RB/RZ for $40 all day long, yet for the ETRSi and SQ series, they fetch more like $100 a pop. Prism finders, on the other hand are very reasonable. Go figure.....

I am looking to get a kit with a waist level finder, and then buying a AE Prism with it.

Voyager13b said:

You noticed that too? I could never figure that out. You can buy W/L finders for the RB/RZ for $40 all day long, yet for the ETRSi and SQ series, they fetch more like $100 a pop. Prism finders, on the other hand are very reasonable. Go figure.....

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RE: WLF's for ETR-Si,
Koh's Camera is now selling them NEW for $59. Last year they were about $100 there. KEH has BGN grade for $45, EX for $59, LN- for $79.

You can't go wrong with a Bronica ETRSi.

visit KEH: Dead Link Removed

Good luck

I posted recently on another thread, picked up an ETRS with 70mm, 3 backs, prism finder for $100 on local Craigslist. I mean at the prices now, who can refuse? Similar low prices on auction sites, slightly higher, and this way I got to see it before forking over the cash. There's a current listing on here for a great 40mm lens for these too .... pick it up! I already have one

I've always been a 35mm shooter so the relative-rectangle makes sense to me .... there are also 35mm backs for the ETRS bodies .... I have a normal one already, still trying to find a nice 135W

I haven't used a Mamiya since I sold my 7 years ago, but I would like another 6x7 one day.

I also have 2 ETRSi Bronicas and have been adding some things to my kit. I have 75 and 150 and looking for a 50 or 40 wide angle. I like these cameras very much and interchangeable backs mean you can have several films going at the same time. I also like the 6x4.5 format that gives you more exposures per roll. I use the prism finders and the grip that makes it nice for hand holding.