Bought Heliar - should I change the shutter?

I just bought a Heliar 4.5/21 cm seen here: http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.aspx?aid=39918866
and would be greatful if anyone can help me with some questions I have.

It looks like the shutter might be bad. Since I plan to use the lens at a large aperture for portraits, on my 4x5, I suppose I might need faster shutter speeds than counting seconds. Can I put the lens in a new shutter myself?

Also, is anyone familiar with the serial numbers of these? this is: 3285252 When can it be from? I suppose it is uncoated, wich would be fine for portraits.

Also, would this lens have any chanse to cover 18x24 cm? Maybe some nice blurry, vignetting, landscapes that way?

/matti

This is a great little lens! Checking this list, your lens dates to around 1951, and it is probably coated. Compound shutters are built very well, and this one looks in good shape. I would first have it thoroughly cleaned and calibrated by a repair person experienced in these older shutters. The damaged cable release socket is fairly common, and should be an easy fix. These older Compound shutters will never be as accurate as a modern clockwork shutter, but it should give fairly accurate results up to around 1/50 sec. I have several, and they have always performed well.

Good luck!

I thought Heliars had limited coverage, something around 46 degrees for an image circle of around 180mm for your 210/4.5. I also have a 210/4.5 Heliar of about the same vintage, but I had never considered it for 8x10—until your post. So I mounted it on my 8x10 and the circle of illumination fully covers 8x10. There is significant light loss in the corners, probably at least 1 stop, but the corners seem fairly sharp on the gg.

Thanks Eric!

Maybe the shutter just works. I havn't recieved it yet. But otherwise I will do as you suggest and try to have it serviced.
Nice that I can use it on both cameras. That way I also get a lens with a shutter for my big camera. It will be a bit wide for portraits on that though.

/matti

resummerfield said:

I thought Heliars had limited coverage, something around 46 degrees for an image circle of around 180mm for your 210/4.5. I also have a 210/4.5 Heliar of about the same vintage, but I had never considered it for 8x10—until your post. So I mounted it on my 8x10 and the circle of illumination fully covers 8x10. There is significant light loss in the corners, probably at least 1 stop, but the corners seem fairly sharp on the gg.

Click to expand...

The original Heliar had limited coverage, as indeed does the Universal Heliar.

But the Heliars which were mounted in shutters are not the same lens - they are without exception Dynars. And the Dynar-type Heliars have quite a bit better coverage. I tested a bunch of 150mm lenses on 5x7" some years ago, and among them was a Heliar 150/4.5 off a Voigtländer Bergheil. It just covers, at f:16. So the image circle of a 150mm Heliar 8in shutter) is 210mm!

Your 21cm Heliar should be in a Compound III/7, the only common Compound 3. They are remarkably accurate as long as they work, and should be well worth repairing. If you decide to change the shutter you should be aware that the cell threads are not the same as on modern Copal 3 shutters.

Thanks Ole!

/matti

There's quite a lot of info about the Compound shutters online if you want to do your own repair. Two things stand out though:

1) Do not try and cock the shutter when on B and T. It doesn't work like that and you will break it if you force it.

2) The shutter blades (or is it the aperture blades?) are not made of metal and can be damaged beyond repair if you use the old bodger's trick of spraying solvent into the shutter or flooding it with naptha. You must disassemble and clean.

Finally, the pistons are supposed to run dry. Often Compounds are sticky because someone lubricated them in the past and the oil has gummed up.

Some very good points! I’m certainly not a shutter repair person, and I recommend sending it to any experienced shop (like Carol Miller in California). However, the Compound is fairly simple, and if you must you can probably get it working.

The SK Grimes webside has a good tutorial on repairing the Compound shutter. Once the cover is removed, you can operate the shutter and watch carefully to diagnose the problem.

The Compound shutters I have worked on all had metal aperture and shutter blades, but others may have composite blades. Beware that not all shutter blades are the same, so keep them in order if you disassemble.

Check the piston carefully, so as not to nick or damage anything. If the piston does not slide very smoothly through the bore, very carefully polish both with something like jeweler’s rouge, or in the worst case, crocus cloth. Anything else will remove too much metal and affect the timing. Check the end caps for damaged or dry seals. I have some gasket material from NAPA, and punch a hole with a paper punch and use the “hole” for a new gasket. A very small drop of oil on the gasket, left for an hour or so, will make a great seal.

Finally, put a very slight dab of “moly grease” on the spring cam that drives the shutter.

Good luck!

Thanks for the info!

I recieved the lens today. In great shape! But as I thought the shutter had a problem. B and T works but all the times are very fast. I suppose the piston is the problem then. I took off the timing dial and the piston knob didn't move. I'll disassamble it more tonight.

/matti

With the help of detailed instructions from Eric (resummerfield) I managed to fix the shutter. I probably had a little too much oil on the gaskets for the air piston, so the piston might have some oil on it, so the times are about 50-100% too long. But it works! I even built a lensboard for my Techihara.

/matti