Bought Bolex C8 Kern Paillard 8mm camera for photography

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 16, 2013

After not working Leicina adventure , I bought Bolex Kern Paillard C8 8 mm camera from Germany for photography. Its in excellent shape and used few times ,like new. I have no lens yet but I will buy one next month.

Umut

removed account4 · Oct 16, 2013

have fun with that umut !
what a great camera

be advised that it can be kind of tricky exposing film ..
cine film is chrome film, so over exposing gives a thin image

and also be advised that d mount lenses ( and others ) the focus
and aperture are the same, so it might be trial and error until you
get the focus AND exposure to jive with what you expect ...

i miss my h8 and b8!
john

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 16, 2013

Thank you John , I was thinking to send you an pm but its better to talk here. I watched an youtube video and I loved , fallen love to that camera , it was a color movie and girl was colorful than any other Leica shots than I have ever seen. And the edges of the face , cheeks and nose like glowing. I liked the effect very much. Lenses are more expensive than the camera ! But I am not in hurry and can wait couple of months. Is camera an super 8 ? I love the 50s orange , orange black , burned or glowing orange skin tones extremelly much.

How do you focus that camera , is there an viewfinder ? I can do with scale also . Is there a light meter on the camera. I did not understand aperture and focus same ?

Take care,
Umut

removed account4 · Oct 16, 2013

hi umut

no, you need a light meter, not to worry, even cheap seckonic meters have a "cine" reading, you should be OK.
the camera is a double-8 mm camera meaning it takes 16mm film that you run the the camera 2x
one way, then the other ... ( to expose both sides ) when you send it to be processed they will slice it down the middle
and splice the 2 ends together like they are supposed to. what i meant by the focus and aperture are the same ...
( at least with the ones i had ? ) the distances and fstops were the same so as you opened up the lens you changed the focus
and when you stopped down the lens you changed the stop ... in other words, there wasn't a separate aperture ring, it was just the focus.
maybe the lenses i was using were "different" than what people usually use (yvar + switar ) or i was totally clueless ( could be )
... it was kind of trick sometimes .. but it all worked out in the end ...

john

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 16, 2013

Hi John,

I am happy you are well , when you are coming here to drink Turkish coffee ? If you needed hookah - nargile-, I can send it to you
I will buy a yvar next month , it goes for 24 dollars or so .
Can I use modern Kodak films with this camera , if not is there a manufacturer for double 8 color film ? Or do I need to buy old film ?

Thanks,
Umut

Ektagraphic · Oct 16, 2013

Currently, the only manufacturer that I know of still producing this type of 8mm film is Foma...This is a great camera! I have never really used an 8mm for still photography. It sounds like an interesting use! Here is a link to the B&H Website where you can find it. It looks like it is out of stock at the moment: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/927375-REG/foma_411801_fomapan_r100_2x_standard.html...I am thinking that you would get somewhere in the ballpark of maybe 2,700 still frames on a roll...If my calculations are right.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 16, 2013

2700 frames , wow , I was thinking 1000 or 1500 but 2700 is way too much. But If I take 150 or so a day , I can cause the same expense with 35mm camera. Is there a scanning and developing lab for that film ? I think its called telecine , what is the one frame jpeg file size ?
Can they put 2700 different files in to a dvd ? Is that special order thing or an simple thing ?

I want color with these cameras too much , is there any refrigirated color film sellers for these cameras ?

Umut

johnielvis · Oct 16, 2013

dwaynes has film for sale still. John Schwind has run out but said that there may be some agfa 200 speed color available in the future

there are two types of bolex lenses that fit that camera--the type that do have a focus helicoid and the type that don't. There is a 5.5mm pizar that has no focus ring since it is very wide just about everyting is in focus wide open anyways. There is a 13mm yvar with aperture only as well. the rest of the d mount lenses should have both focus rings and aperture rings. there are also some other d mount lenses--aftermarket and for other cameras such as bell and howell and revere. The wider angle ones generally have no focus settings and only aperture settings.

the still picture shutter speed can only be used with a cable release and it is 1/17 sec at the 8fps speed and 1/25 second at all other speed settings for the standard c8 with fixed (not variable) shutter.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 17, 2013

John ,

I looked to Dwaynes and there is color wittnerchrome
100 d film for regular 8. Price...................................................... 25 dollars
shipment to me........................................................................ 25 dollars ,
taking.................................................................................... 2700 shots takes 3 months ,
than sending back to dwaynes costs ...........................................15 dollars ,
development........................................................................... 25 dollars ,
shipment back to me................................................................ 25 dollars

Only film and development costs............................................... 115 dollars.
Give telecine another ................................................................50 dollars
.................................................................................... total 165 dollars.

36 exposure 35mm film is .............................................................5 dollars. here
development..............................................................................5 dollars
scanning and cd..........................................................................5 dollars
For.......................................................................................... 165 dollars ,
............................................................................you can buy 13 rolls makes 400 frames

regular color film trading is suicide for me. Its very expensive investment

But if I develop my own film and scan the best ones by myself , cost 1/100 with bw

umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 17, 2013

the still picture shutter speed can only be used with a cable release and it is 1/17 sec at the 8fps speed and 1/25 second at all other speed settings for the standard c8 with fixed (not variable) shutter

John, thank you for very important detail.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 17, 2013

I bought Lens Paillard 13mm f :1.9 Yvar AR D Mount for C8.

johnielvis · Oct 17, 2013

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
John ,

I looked to Dwaynes and there is color wittnerchrome
100 d film for regular 8. Price...................................................... 25 dollars
shipment to me........................................................................ 25 dollars ,
taking.................................................................................... 2700 shots takes 3 months ,
than sending back to dwaynes costs ...........................................15 dollars ,
development........................................................................... 25 dollars ,
shipment back to me................................................................ 25 dollars

Only film and development costs............................................... 115 dollars.
Give telecine another ................................................................50 dollars
.................................................................................... total 165 dollars.

36 exposure 35mm film is .............................................................5 dollars. here
development..............................................................................5 dollars
scanning and cd..........................................................................5 dollars
For.......................................................................................... 165 dollars ,
............................................................................you can buy 13 rolls makes 400 frames

regular color film trading is suicide for me. Its very expensive investment

But if I develop my own film and scan the best ones by myself , cost 1/100 with bw

umut

WOW---reminds me of Walden "economy" where he lists all the costs of living in the woods--last detail.

Yes I agree--black and white is best considering cost. A THOUGHT: get filters and do three color on the black and white film. Since you will have very many frames, you can do three color pictures--you'll need a tripod but it is a promising idea. Red, green, blue---then you can put together after scanning for composite trichrome shots with better quality than one single frame.

the yvar is very good lens--all of bolex lenses are very good lenses--so long as they are still clean and haven't been tampered with they perform.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 17, 2013

Yvar 13 mm f :1.9 and Yvar 13 mm f :1.8 difference

John Elvis ,

And it reminds me how sellers want to skin us with postal charges , 100 grams and 1 kilogram shipment is 25 dollars to here. Round trip costs 65 dollars for 25 dollars film. And processing , telecine... But if you have more finance than me , if you can afford it , it really worths. Thats the strong point. May be I can go in to it with 3 -4 months break.

I bought my Yvar at mint condition.

I want to ask is there any quality difference between two lenses ? I have 1.9 and there are tens of them at the market. But everyone with a digital camera uses 1.8. I astonished with the quality of 1.8 but mine -1.9- samples are rare and colors are death.

Is this a web search luck or are those two lenses are excellent ?

Umut

Dan Fromm · Oct 17, 2013

Mustafa, homework first, then purchases. Too late for that. See http://www.bolexcollector.com/

Mustafa, homework first. In post #3 you mentioned seeing loveable 8/8 color footage. Kodachrome, not E-6. Kodachrome is gone, finished, kaput.

Re lenses, Kern made three grades of lenses for Bolexes. Bottom-of-the-barrel, Pizar. Mid-range, Yvar. Top-of-the-line, Switar.

Bolex made more than one grade of camera. You bought near the bottom of the barrel. For what you want to do, you really need a variable shutter. You should have done your homework.

John Nanian wrote

the camera is a double-8 mm camera meaning it takes 16mm film

Not quite. 8/8 has one perforation/frame, so does 16. 8/8 has, therefore, twice as many perforations/length as 16 and 8/8 cameras won't feed 16 mm film.

In post #6 in this thread, Ektagraphic reminded us that Foma makes b/w 8/8 film. Mustafa, if you're willing to shoot b/w you can process it yourself, there's no need to send it out. Processing tanks for small gauge cine film are still available.

In post #12 in this thread johnielvis suggested trichromy with b/w film. This is a non-starter, the C8 isn't pin registered and with such a tiny format good registration is necessary for trichromy.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 17, 2013

Thank you Dan,

I jumped to the ebay offer. It was cheap. I am happy I bought mid range lens. I saw my lifes best samples with 1.8 but I dont know how the 1.9 was and samples are not good but they are rare and bad work for Bolex cameras.

I will follow foma or if I can find ORWO route and process at home.

Someone suggested C8 is a 1/25 speed camera , In my view I can make many subdued winter time photography.

What about the telecine , what is the file size per frame , cost and availability to make one by one frame file recording

Thank you,
Umut

removed account4 · Oct 17, 2013

Dan Fromm said:
Mustafa, homework first, then purchases. Too late for that. See http://www.bolexcollector.com/

Mustafa, homework first. In post #3 you mentioned seeing loveable 8/8 color footage. Kodachrome, not E-6. Kodachrome is gone, finished, kaput.

Re lenses, Kern made three grades of lenses for Bolexes. Bottom-of-the-barrel, Pizar. Mid-range, Yvar. Top-of-the-line, Switar.

Bolex made more than one grade of camera. You bought near the bottom of the barrel. For what you want to do, you really need a variable shutter. You should have done your homework.

John Nanian wrote

Not quite. 8/8 has one perforation/frame, so does 16. 8/8 has, therefore, twice as many perforations/length as 16 and 8/8 cameras won't feed 16 mm film.

In post #6 in this thread, Ektagraphic reminded us that Foma makes b/w 8/8 film. Mustafa, if you're willing to shoot b/w you can process it yourself, there's no need to send it out. Processing tanks for small gauge cine film are still available.

In post #12 in this thread johnielvis suggested trichromy with b/w film. This is a non-starter, the C8 isn't pin registered and with such a tiny format good registration is necessary for trichromy.

hey dan

i guess what i was trying to say is that double 8 is wider than straight 8 since it is put through the camera 2x i should have said it is "sort of like" 16mm film
(double wide ) so you can put it through 2x ... unfortunately it ISN"T 16mm ... ( sorry if i confused you umut! )

you might want to check out this archived website, its got a ton of stuff
that might be helpful ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20060225071347/http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/

btaylor · Oct 17, 2013

Interesting thread, I greatly enjoyed my Bolex B8 when I was young. I can still project the old Plus X and Kodachromes and they look great for what they are. Yes, cine film makes a great many exposures per roll. BUT, my goodness, the frame size is so tiny! In my opinion, enlargements from 8mm, S8 and even 16mm are mostly pretty awful. The grain is HUGE, and the low speed, fine grain films are long gone. Well shot 8mm with a fine camera (like a Bolex) looked okay as a moving image, not so good as a still. Telecine is not going to work so great as a way to transfer the individual images for stills use. It is a relatively low resolution way to digitize motion picture film and works well for a moving image, individual frame grabs are not that great. A 2K scan would be way out of your price range. Maybe use one of the old movie film enlargement attachments from the old days that you would attach to your SLR. Adapt one to a DSLR and you have a very inexpensive high resolution digital capture. Have fun with your project.

johnielvis · Oct 17, 2013

Dan Fromm said:
In post #12 in this thread johnielvis suggested trichromy with b/w film. This is a non-starter, the C8 isn't pin registered and with such a tiny format good registration is necessary for trichromy.

STUFF AND NONSENSE! (I've ALWAYS wanted to say that to Dan Fromm!!!)

three color process has been done succcessfully from the beginning with no pin registration. If the films are scanned, they can be registered perfectly with photoshop or some other software such as image stacking software for HDR--this is regularly done these days.

removed account4 · Oct 17, 2013

johnielvis said:
STUFF AND NONSENSE! (I've ALWAYS wanted to say that to Dan Fromm!!!)

three color process has been done succcessfully from the beginning with no pin registration. If the films are scanned, they can be registered perfectly with photoshop or some other software such as image stacking software for HDR--this is regularly done these days.

HOLY CR@P!
you said PS + softw@re ...

thems is crazy workds jonnielvis!!

johnielvis · Oct 17, 2013

Yeah..I hated doing photoshop when I did my first three-color film composites. Felt like a traitor--then it got easier. I've only ever used photoshop and scanning for three color pics so far, however--only when absolutely necessary.

I suppose the 8mm can be projected with 3 color filters--say all mounted on the same slide and somehow made to converge--only way is 3 lenses, right?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 18, 2013

John,

Thank you for clearing that , it is very important. I am watching youtube videos , surfing forums and saw some excellent and some horrible videos , most grainy to better than Leica. I dont have an idea why process such varies. I will travel with a meter to know the lens distance to object and focus correctly. %90 of the movies are out of focus.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 21, 2013

I learned that Yvar 13mm f:1.9 is a fixed focus lens. Cinematography com members tells older film stocks and tri x is extremelly grainy but 100d have minimum grain. For FOMA regular 8mm film , they tell it has a narrow latitude. KAHL is the color and bw film and development supplier in europe. Dwayne is US supplier , they sell a german brand color film. Telecine is ultra expensive and hundreds per hour to climb unbeliviable amounts.

I am asking if one of my photograph in 50 is successful and if I scan it with famous brand cheap desktop scanner with highest resolution , what would be the comparison with cheap telecine or digital camera shot ?

Umut

Jim Jones · Oct 22, 2013

Scanning single frames of 8mm film on a desktop scanner should give very poor results when compared to DSLR or 35mm cameras. The movie frame is about 1/7th the size of a 35mm frame. Therefore, if we can make a good 11x14 inch print from a DSLR or 35mm film camera, we might get an equally good 1.5x2 inch print from 8mm film. Scanning the film on a desktop scanner should further degrade the image. Most point-and-shoot digital cameras should do much better than this. We perceive the image of a 8mm movie as being better than the still image of a single frame due to our brain integrating several images of the movie for apparent higher quality.

removed account4 · Oct 22, 2013

hi umut

i can't comment on your scanner or telecine shot
because i am clueless in that department, but i have
scanned a bunch of color 8mm that i took years ago
using a now almost 7 or 10year old scanner ...
it wasn't the easiest thing to do and
it was a PITA but it worked ... i guess
i am sure it failed in others' eyes though
( im not a stickler for perfect image quality so i accepted the flaws
as part of the whole .. )
if you can live with the flaws of a tiny negative scanned ... i guess you are good to go
but if you expect it to look well as good as a kodachrome 4x5 negative, you will be disappointed ...

Ektagraphic · Oct 22, 2013

Perhaps you might think about giving Minox a try while you are at it!

Bought Bolex C8 Kern Paillard 8mm camera for photography

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