Bottled Water for Developing Film

The idea of boiling water to remove oxygen -- I only took high school chemistry, so undoubtedly it's my lack of education, but this seem to imply that along with all that H2O in the water are a bunch of O's hanging around unattached to any H's and they're just waiting to ravage your developer. As O is a gas usually, wouldn't you perhaps see bubbles in your water if there were unattached oxygen floating around between the water molecules?

I can see that heat might disassociate the atoms in a water molecule, separating the oxygen from the hydrogen (which would just float away into the atmosphere?) but doesn't that simply reduce the amount of water in the pot? I mean, boil water long enough and it will all boil away, not just those loose O's. So what's the explanation for this long-heard suggestion about boiling water to reduce levels of oxygen in the water?

The idea of boiling water to remove oxygen -- I only took high school chemistry, so undoubtedly it's my lack of education, but this seem to imply that along with all that H2O in the water are a bunch of O's hanging around unattached to any H's and they're just waiting to ravage your developer. As O is a gas usually, wouldn't you perhaps see bubbles in your water if there were unattached oxygen floating around between the water molecules?

I can see that heat might disassociate the atoms in a water molecule, separating the oxygen from the hydrogen (which would just float away into the atmosphere?) but doesn't that simply reduce the amount of water in the pot? I mean, boil water long enough and it will all boil away, not just those loose O's. So what's the explanation for this long-heard suggestion about boiling water to reduce levels of oxygen in the water?

Oxygen gas (O2) is one of the gasses that can dissolve in water. It doesn't form bubbles and it's actually what the fish breathe.

Boiling water will expel the dissolved gasses, but when it cools down it will reabsorb them.

Ian Grant said:

I used to drive to Malvern to fill up containers with water for brewing

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+1 Water quality is probably more important in brewing than for photography. This is true whether you are making whiskey, beer or mead. Remember commercial developers contain a chelating agent to deal with calcium and iron in the case of Xtol.

What's wrong with tap water?

cliveh said:

What's wrong with tap water?

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Tap water isn't wrong in the sense that the film will come out.

But it also contains minerals, metals, particles and chemical additives that may interact with the photochemicals or the emulsion.

Morereover, tap water is inconsistent over time and geographic locations.

So, for me it's a matter of removing the x-factor, and getting clearer negatives.

One thing I noticed when using my bottled water was that there was a lot more visible dye in the washes compared to tap water. And the negatives came out really clean.

Jaf-Photo said:

So, for me it's a matter of removing the x-factor, and getting clearer negatives.

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Clearer negatives! Can you elaborate on that?

cliveh said:

What's wrong with tap water?

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It depends.

Usually, nothing. It is the exceptions that many of us are trying to eliminate. The water in the suburb where I live is perfectly fine by all standards, but still contains chemical residues that are NOT water. And, it has an odor. Not strong, but distinct. In addition to the smell, if you leave some of this water sitting for very long, there will be a solid ring of , well, something, around the rim. At about a dollar a gallon, many of us use it for film developers and rinse agents. I use tap water for everything else, including drinking and bathing.

Jaf-photo can certainly answer for himself, but he may have meant "cleaner" negatives.

YMMV.

Bullshot

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I apologize for commas this is the smallest smart phone.

If you live in a municipality that has good water like Sacramento, tap water is fine. Sometimes, bottled water is lower quality than what you can get from your tap. Personally, it's the biggest con of the 21st century.

Mainecoonmaniac said:

If you live in a municipality that has good water like Sacramento, tap water is fine. Sometimes, bottled water is lower quality than what you can get from your tap. Personally, it's the biggest con of the 21st century.

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+1 More often than not, in the U.S. most bottled water is from municipal water supplies bottled with exorbitant price tags and waste.

But there's no substitute for distilled water.

...I only use pure branch water...

Mainecoonmaniac said:

But there's no substitute for distilled water.

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please read post #86 of thread linked above and tell me why distilled is ...

bobwysiwyg said:

+1 More often than not, in the U.S. most bottled water is from municipal water supplies bottled with exorbitant price tags and waste.

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But it's not exorbitant. A case of 24 bottles is commonly less than 5 dollars. The convenience can be great,. I always keep a few of those lightweight, durable, resealable bottles in my car and elsewhere. For 15 cents per bottle it's an astounding bargain.

I think Mainecoonmaniac is saying we are all silly for being susceptible to thinking that even 15 cents is a bargain for something that may be available for much lower cost at an outlet which is very likely to be conveniently located nearby.

I know, I should talk, I've spent 10 bucks for containers of water that didn't even have water in it. Those Platypus bags at REI are so intriguing to me. You can put the lid back on them when you are done and they don't leak all over your camera. (A few of those 15 cent store brand water bottles with their low-waste lids threatened to leak on my camera at my son's graduation, but I was on top of it and re-seated those little lids very carefully - you have to or they don't seal)...

BetterSense said:

But it's not exorbitant. A case of 24 bottles is commonly less than 5 dollars. The convenience can be great,. I always keep a few of those lightweight, durable, resealable bottles in my car and elsewhere. For 15 cents per bottle it's an astounding bargain.

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Plastic is sourced in the main from petrol chemicals and you need to stop using it. Ditto the auto.

Even free it is a toxic product, unless you know where planet B is?

Our tap water is fine for drinking. It's surface water from a lake in an agricultural area, so it needs a lot of processing.

But as I mentioned in the OP, I'm using a specific bottled water that has been tested agaist local tap water and other bottled waters.

It was found to have the least amount of calcium, potassium, magnesium and salt of all waters tested. The concentration of each of these were less than 1/10 of that found in tap water. Plus you don't get additives, sediments, metal from the pipes etc.

Some brands of bottled contained a hundred times more minerals, most notably Pellegrino.

Back on topic...

First, the issue here is not tap water vs. bottled water vs. RO water vs. deionized water vs. distilled water... it's all about mineral content.

Distilled water has the lowest mineral content, and will certainly not affect your developer activity or your processing. For this reason, there is no substitute for it, especially when making saturated solutions of chemicals for concentrates, etc. where any extra mineral content will affect the solubility of the chemicals.

That said, lots of tap water is perfectly fine for mixing working-strength developers; that is, if the mineral content is at acceptable levels or lower of the minerals that could negatively impact the developer; and, if the tap water is free enough of particulates. For this latter, we can filter, for reducing mineral content, we can often use an activated charcoal filter (Brita pitcher or the like) or boil the water. This is often all we need do to get water that is suitable for mixing our working developers.

The amount of calcium carbonate in good tap water can often be surprisingly high. Hard water will not only leave rings in your toilet, but often can increase the activity of a developer. That doesn't mean that it can't be used though. I have two different developing times for my darkroom in the U.S. (very soft, low-mineral tap water) and my "darkroom" in Vienna, Austria (wonderful mountain-spring water but rather hard); I need 5% more time in the U.S. to achieve the same density... as they say, "it's the water."

Iron and other contaminants (usually in well water) can wreak havoc with developers. If your water has these problems, then some other water source for your entire processing may be needed. Really, it's all about knowing what is in your tap water; then you can make an informed strategy.

Tap water often varies in quality throughout the year. If this affects developing, then standardizing on a bottled product (deionized or distilled) will eliminate the variable.

As for dissolved oxygen... I can't for the life of me see why on needs to worry about it. At room temperature, your aqueous developer solution will hold x-amount of dissolved oxygen. There's not really much you can do about that; distilled and deionized and all those other waters have the same amount of dissolved oxygen as well. The problem with developer oxidation is storage. As a developer scavenges oxygen from the water it is dissolved in, it gets replaced from the air. If we can prevent this latter from happening by airtight storage with very little trapped air in the container, then we slow down the oxidation of the developer, thereby extending its life. In a tray or a tank the dissolved oxygen level is going to be what it is. And, you can't mix it with water of any kind to get less dissolved oxygen in the solution unless your doing that in an oxygen-free environment.

One caution about softened water: Many water-softeners replace the calcium compounds in the water with salts. These are just as bad for leaving drying marks, etc. on you negs.

Finally, I really can't see why one needs to worry so much about the mineral content of their processing water leaving marks on their negatives. The real issue is how it may affect the processing. It's simple and more economical to use the distilled/deionized/RO water for the final rinse (with PhotoFlo in my case) and soak the negatives long enough to reduce the mineral content in the emulsion to low enough levels that drying marks will not happen. But, 30 seconds is not enough; a couple minutes or more minimum depending on your water's mineral content is needed. ...And, don't reuse the final rinse bath for subsequent batches! It now has dissolved minerals in it.

As for bottled water and the environment... don't get me started! But please, RECYCLE!


Best,

Doremus

P.S: Jaf, you seem to have found a good solution to your particular problem. Your cheaper bottled water should serve you well for all but making developer concentrates; you probably want distilled for that.

Jaf-Photo said:

Apart from the chemicals, I only used 2 litres of bottled water the whole process, which is the equivalent of runnning the tap for only a few minutes.

So, to me this seems like a good way to preserve water while getting good results.

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I don't see how bottled water by any chance would be a means of preserving water compared to using tap water.

AgX said:

I don't see how bottled water by any chance would be a means of preserving water compared to using tap water.

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You can preserve / conserve water by any procedure that includes measuring as if every gallon were precious.

Suppose you didn't have running water; say you adapted a storage locker for a darkroom and you carry water in buckets for each session... You would be more careful with the amount of water used for processing... And you may get as complete a process, with specific number of changes of water, as you would with an hour of running water.

By the same token, if you go into a darkroom and only use bottled water for processing, you would use less water than if you ran tap water.

I don't know if our drought will force me to do that this summer, but I'm following along for ideas just in case.

As far as the issues in the linked thread, you do need to check the brand of bottled water is trustworthy.

congrats,you proved the Ilford research as being correct.many are using the Ilford washing sequencewith success.I prefer two-bath fixing and a 10 -min wash in running water.

AgX said:

I don't see how bottled water by any chance would be a means of preserving water compared to using tap water.

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Compared to leaving the tap running for the wash.

Also rather than just pitch up 2 litres of tap water and use in the Ilford wash, I use the bottled water as it is cleaner.

My normal practice is to use distilled water for mixing developer stock solutions, and for diluting the D76 1 to 1. For fixer and wash I use tap water, then I use distilled water for the PhotoFlo final rinse. So far, no water spotting or other nasties. Of course YMMV. Generally your water department can furnish you an analysis of hardness, etc.

One of my odder experiences was many years ago. Late one night I'd mixed up some Dektol with tap water and there was NO activity! After much grinding of teeth and thinking, I called the water department. They had sent a slug of acid down the line for whatever purpose and, while safe enough for humans it "stopped" the Dektol. Glad I wasn't developing film!!

Bill Burk said:

I don't know if our drought will force me to do that this summer, but I'm following along for ideas just in case.

As far as the issues in the linked thread, you do need to check the brand of bottled water is trustworthy.

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Hi Bill

I do hope your drought is short term we have had long dry and wet periods here. Record hot and wet at moment, otherwise we get hose pipe bans.

I read it as the OP in the linked thread went to filtered water instead of distilled. Id not think of either drinking distilled or using it for making up D76. I've not seen distilled for decades here only deionized.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

And wash water need not be mineral free our WWII ASW corvettes needed to use changes of sea water with a final rinse in faucet from a bottle and when they archived them post war their negs were as good or better than negs from vessels with desalination.

Sea water is like hypo clear...

A chum (who is a member here) needs to do something on his final rinse to avoid spots, which only occured on Trix (! ) - think he filtered it. My water equally hard has particles but I don't use Trix. Im told evan the local rivers are chalk streams with specific flora and fauna.