Bob Schwalberg on developers?

sanking · Feb 26, 2006

I was glancing through The Film Developing Cookbook this evening and came across the following quote. "One developing agent is best, two is okay, three is very suspect, and four the guy is definitely a jerk." The quote is attributed to Bob Schwalberg, which got me to wondering where one might read some of his other writings about developers?

Sandy

ggriffi · Feb 26, 2006

Sandy, I did a quick google and here are a couple:

Dead Link Removed

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

Seems he passed in 1997.

g

Oren Grad · Feb 26, 2006

Sandy, Bob Schwalberg used to write for Popular Photography; in the '70s and early '80s he was their main man on B&W film and developers. I distinctly recall feature articles that he wrote on Rodinal (which he thought did best with medium-speed films like Plus-X) and on ID-11 Plus (ID-11 with a secret sequestering agent added, a variant offered in the US for a few years by Ilford). I don't recall any articles by Schwalberg that focused on developer formulation per se, though it's been a long time since I last read his stuff. I think he just dropped incidental observations here and there, though conceivably there's something more extensive in one of his columns.

Mark Layne · Feb 27, 2006

In case it's of any interest there is an Amphoto book here from 1923 giving all sorts of ancient formulas, such as long lasting Glycin paste.
There is a tin of Ansco ARDOL on my shelf which I have not been able to find info on, so am curious if anyone knows. I wonder if it was their knockoff of Adurol
Mark

df cardwell · Feb 27, 2006

Bob had a good sense of humor.

I have some stuff on file and will try to dig it out, Sandy.

draining a swamp at present...

you might contact Troop...

d

sanking · Feb 27, 2006

Mark,

Would you post the glycin paste formula, with any instructions that may be provided? There is one of these formulas in The Film Developing Cookbook and it would be interesting to compare. I know that Atget used a formula like this for stand developing and I am very interested in trying one.

Sandy

Mark Layne said:
In case it's of any interest there is an Amphoto book here from 1923 giving all sorts of ancient formulas, such as long lasting Glycin paste.
There is a tin of Ansco ARDOL on my shelf which I have not been able to find info on, so am curious if anyone knows. I wonder if it was their knockoff of Adurol
Mark

Monophoto · Feb 27, 2006

Schwalberg was cynical, neurotic, caustic - and a hell of a great photographer.

His comment on ID-11+ - "D76 with a pinch of nutmeg"

On T-Max - "a film for consenting adults".

The closest we have today is David Vestal - who also was a columnist at Photo Photo at the same time that Schwalberg was there.

Photo Engineer · Feb 27, 2006

David Vestal is quite a guy with lots of stories to tell.

If you ever want to hear stories about Schwalberg, as noted above, talk to Bill Troop.

Of course, Bill is quite a guy as well with lots of his own stories.

I think that two developing agents are enough in one developing solution. Schwalberg was on the right track with that comment. Bill Troop and I have discussed that quote at length. I have also talked to some of the greatest of the EK experts in color and B&W development and find that they say the same.

PE

sanking · Feb 27, 2006

Would love to see the material if you can find it.

Where is Bill Troop now? Anyone have an email address?

Sandy

df cardwell said:
Bob had a good sense of humor.

I have some stuff on file and will try to dig it out, Sandy.

draining a swamp at present...

you might contact Troop...

d

df cardwell · Feb 27, 2006

SANDY:

from a 1920 Agfa Photo Handbook: The Hubl (#16) is the one you want.

don

Gim · Feb 27, 2006

Amazon.com shows Bob Schwalberg, "high Speed and Fine Grain" 1952. out of print and no reference where one can be purchased. Some good book detectives may be able to help.
Jim

sanking · Feb 27, 2006

Wow, that is pretty neat.

I am going to give it a try.

Thanks a bunch.

Sandy

df cardwell said:
SANDY:

from a 1920 Agfa Photo Handbook: The Hubl (#16) is the one you want.

don

Photo Engineer · Feb 27, 2006

Sandy;

I don't think Bill would want it published. Contact me via e-mail.

He is visiting his brother right now.

PE

Kino · Feb 27, 2006

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&y=11&tn=Agfa+Photo+Handbook&x=20

5 copies available on www.abebooks.com for $18USD to $35USD; two in Canada and three in USA.

See, this issue of copyright comes up all the time and it impacts everyday life much more than people ever imagine...

sanking · Feb 28, 2006

Thanks for the reference. I managed to find a late edition of this book in EX+ condition. Sounds like there might be some very interesting information in there.

Just hope it is not in German? I can read in several languages fluently, but German is not one of them! Wish it were, though.

Sandy

Kino said:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&y=11&tn=Agfa+Photo+Handbook&x=20

5 copies available on www.abebooks.com for $18USD to $35USD; two in Canada and three in USA.

See, this issue of copyright comes up all the time and it impacts everyday life much more than people ever imagine...

Mark Layne · Mar 1, 2006

sanking said:
Mark,

Would you post the glycin paste formula, with any instructions that may be provided? There is one of these formulas in The Film Developing Cookbook and it would be interesting to compare. I know that Atget used a formula like this for stand developing and I am very interested in trying one.

Sandy

GLYCIN - A concentrated paste of extraordinary keeping qualities may be prepared as follows, using sodium carbonate to avoid harsh negatives:

Water to .......................1000 ccm 4oz.
Sodium sulphite, dry ........285 g 1 1/4 oz
Glycin ...........................250 g 1 oz.

Bring to a boil, and add, a little at a time,

Sodium carbonate, dry ......625 g 2 1/2 oz.

Effervescence will take place on addition of the soda. If 5 oz., or 1,250 g of potassium carbonate be used, instead of the soda, denser negatives will be obtained. For use the paste should be well stirred and for normal work 1 part should be diluted with 15 parts of water; for very soft results add 1 part to 30 parts water. This forms the best developer for tank development.

df cardwell · Mar 1, 2006

Sandy playing with Hübl Cream developer.

Hope he doesn't brush his teeth with it.

( SK: Look in your leClerc for Hübl info... I think )

Anyway, I pored over an 1918 Photo Miniature last night: "How to Develop The Negative".

Great stuff. Referred to seveal new papers by Dr. Crabtree; there were a couple letters by folks using the 'brush method' of development usng Pyro, one quoting a method "popular back in the '90s, using 3 strengths of solution". There weres some exciting variations.

And there was reference to the Hubl paste developer, a proto system of a sink line,
and a letter from a photographer who had solved the problem of developing a days shoot quickly without resorting to high temperatures that damage the emulsion.

For those interested in trying it, prepare a tray, fill it with straight Rodinal and slip the plate, or sheet, into the solution. Five or six seconds, then into the fix.

C'mon everybody, we're not trying ! We have to start being inventive to keep up with our glorious tradition !

There was also some discussion about alternatives to Metol and Rodinal, unavailable ( from Germany ) due to the war.

Gerald Koch · Mar 1, 2006

sanking said:
"One developing agent is best, two is okay, three is very suspect, and four the guy is definitely a jerk." The quote is attributed to Bob Schwalberg.

This is all too true. One sees homebrew formulas on this and other lists that make no sense to anyone with a knowledge of photo chemistry. A good developer is a carefully balanced mixture, not one comprised of a pinch of this and a dollup of that.

sanking · Mar 1, 2006

df cardwell said:
Sandy playing with Hübl Cream developer.

Hope he doesn't brush his teeth with it.

C'mon everybody, we're not trying ! We have to start being inventive to keep up with our glorious tradition !

Huuummm. Well, I normally use tooth paste with baking soda. Carbonate no? Who knows, the glycin might be a whitener?

Sandy

df cardwell · Mar 1, 2006

sanking said:
Huuummm. Well, I normally use tooth paste with baking soda. Carbonate no? Who knows, the glycin might be a whitener?

Sandy

It is, but it takes about an hour.

And you have to be vertical.

d

Mark Layne · Mar 1, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
This is all too true. One sees homebrew formulas on this and other lists that make no sense to anyone with a knowledge of photo chemistry. A good developer is a carefully balanced mixture, not one comprised of a pinch of this and a dollup of that.

Dunno, Frederick Evans developed his plates by standing overnight in a dollop of this and pinch of that. Or maybe he got Pyro to last till morning
Mark

Gerald Koch · Mar 1, 2006

My criticism was directed towards those who view ascorbate as sort of a "magic bullet" that can be added without further thought to any developer and produce miraculous results. It's interesting to read Zawadzki and Dickerson's article in Photo Techniques on the invention of a new developer. I don't think people appreciate the total amount of work in the cycle of compounding, testing, recompounding, retesting, involved in obtaining a useful product.

gainer · Mar 1, 2006

OTH, if you happen upon something serendipitously, there's no harm in reporting it. Others will soon tell you if it's no good, sometimes without even trying it. Ain't theory great? Please laugh at my jokes.

Gerald Koch · Mar 1, 2006

Serendipity does indeed happen. Edison, instead of looking at the properties of the elements, systematically tried each and every one when trying to perfect the light bulb. In doing so he created a lot of un-necessary work for himself but finally found tungsten.

But beside serendipity there is also the example of the forward pass -- three things can happen and two of them are bad. Before altering a developer one must consider all consequences. Those who added ascorbic acid rather than sodium ascorbate to Rodinal got quite a surprise when they came up with blank film. A perfect example of disturbing the balance of a developer. Mixing Rodinal and Xtol together, as suggested by some, is not going to produce supermicroultrafinegrainol. My comments also apply to throwing in a bit of glycin or pyrogallol or catechol. It's a lot easier if you are aware of the properties of the developer you wish to alter and of the chemicals to intend to add.

I'm not opposed to experimenting, it's fun. But before one can claim to have found the perfect developer there remains a lot of testing and measurement.

Photo Engineer · Mar 1, 2006

What bothers me is that most of these experimenters use the human eyeball to judge a print of a single developer of one subject and compare it to another film in another developer of another scene and say the new developer is better.

To be done right, an experiment must compare 2 identical exposures on the same film of the same subject developed to the same gamma and appropriate speed (proven by H&D scales) and the picture along with sharpness and grain should be comapred. This should be in terms of hard data, not subjective comments.

And, the originator of the developer is not an objective judge of his own work. It should be vetted by at least one other person. If they disagree, the other persons work should be vetted by a third and the majority opinion should rule. Then the minority person must review his own data and repeat his experiment for re-comparison. Oh, and this should all be the average of at least 2 runs of 2 mixes of the developer as well.

Interesting? Fun? Lots of work? Well, all of the above. BTDT. That is why we worked on teams at EK, so that we could objectively judge work more effectively.

PE

Bob Schwalberg on developers?

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