Blue fomapan 100 negs

pwitkop · Sep 26, 2004

In my recent round of film testing, I just processed my first roll of fomapan 100. The negs look very nice, and quite sharp in pyrocat, but the roll has a very pronounced blue color, like the sensatising dyes didn't get washed off entirely. It looks like a roll of t-max that hadn't gotten fixed and washed properly, but instead of a magenta cast, it's blue. Has anyone else seen this, or have any ideas on what might be the cause? My process was pre-wet for 5 min. with nearly continuous agitation, develop in pyrocat 1:1:100, water rinse for 45 sec, fix for 5 min in kodak powder fixer, 2 min. in kodak HCA, 15 min. wash (in a roll film washer), photo flow, hung to dry. I tested the fix, and it seemed good, it cleared a piece of tri-x in about 60 sec., and the roll of jandc 100 I had in the same tank at the time cleared fine.

Peter

rjr · Sep 26, 2004

Peter,

pwitkop said:
In my recent round of film testing, I just processed my first roll of fomapan 100. The negs look very nice, and quite sharp in pyrocat, but the roll has a very pronounced blue color, like the sensatising dyes didn't get washed off entirely.
Peter

That´s normal. I´d describe it as a blue/greenish cast. The color cast is in the layer, there is no way to wash it out.

Some people dispise the color, but the film will print fine nevertheless. ;-)

pwitkop · Sep 26, 2004

The test negative I printed looked fine, as long as it's normal, I cerntainly don't mind. I'd just never seen it before so I figured I must have done something wrong

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 26, 2004

Efke, Foma, and Forte films all have this dye. It will come out with a 2-minute presoak. Unlike the magenta dye in Kodak films, the blue-green dye doesn't seem to come out so easily in the fix or wash.

rjr · Sep 26, 2004

David,

David A. Goldfarb said:
Efke, Foma, and Forte films all have this dye.

No. The three companies have very different approaches towards base, AHU and sensitising of their emulsions.

Efke uses a clear polyester base for the rollfilm and they use the same dies Kodak, Ilford and others use plus a blue AHU laquer (which comes off in presoak or developing). Sometimes a pink cast is left after fixing and washing and this will clear with a soda bath or some hours in the sun (I hang the cut film in the sheet on the inside of a window).

IIRC Forte uses a plain triacetate base with greyish tone. Haven´t used it in a while.

Foma uses a polyester base, too. But this one has a tint that will not fade or wash out.

Let me cite the spec sheet for Fomapan 100 (from www.foma.cz):

"Base

The following bases are used for manufacturing the particular sorts of the film:
120 rollfilm - a bluish polyester base 0,1 mm thick, furnished with a matted
backing which will decolourize during processing. The backing has anti-halation and anti-curling properties and prevents the incidence of Newton rings during
enlarging.

35 mm film - a gray or gray-blue cellulose triacetate base 0,135 mm thick,"

I don´t know which brand of polyester base they are using - many western companies use DuPont´s Melinex which is totally clear by itself.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 26, 2004

Thanks for the more detailed info, Roman. Whatever the dye is, I've been using Efke 100, Fomapan T200, and Classic/Forte 400, and a presoak works with all of them.

pwitkop · Sep 27, 2004

I wonder what the reason for the blue base is in roll film. The 35mm uses a gray/gray blue base, and the sheet film a clear base, I wonder what problem it solves that isn't existant in the other formats. Whatever the reason, the colored negs are kinda neat to have around in the darkroom, adds a splash of color

On a side note, reading the pdf on the foma web site, it mentions cm sheet film sizes. I know 9x12 is at least aproximately the same size as 4x5, but does anyone know if it is exactly the same, or close enough that it would fit in standard 4x5 film holders? The results from foma pro 100 in 120 seem very promising so far, I'd like to possibly try it in large format as well.

Peter

Les McLean · Sep 27, 2004

David A. Goldfarb said:
Thanks for the more detailed info, Roman. Whatever the dye is, I've been using Efke 100, Fomapan T200, and Classic/Forte 400, and a presoak works with all of them.

David, have you had any problems with uneven development, best seen in areas of plain mid grey such as a sky, when you have presoaked a this film, surely the blue dye is in there for a purpose. I ask because some years ago Fay Godwin had serious uneven development when presoaking FP4 and the problem was identified as presoak. When she stopped this practice the uneven development disappeared.

Helen B · Sep 27, 2004

Maco Cube 400c also has a blue base that survives processing - it behaves quite differently from a dye in a coated layer.

David, I think that Fomapan 200 only has a blue dyed-in-the-mass base with the 120: the 35 mm is grey and the sheet film is clear, isn't it? Were you referring to 120 or sheet film?

Best,
Helen

TPPhotog · Sep 27, 2004

rjr said:
"Sometimes a pink cast is left after fixing and washing and this will clear with a soda bath or some hours in the sun (I hang the cut film in the sheet on the inside of a window)."

I was always told that negatives should be kept away from sunlight. Is this no longer the case? If not then I don't need to spend so much time in darkend rooms.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 27, 2004

No uneven development problems with the presoak, and Fomapan T200 I've used only in 120, and the blue does come out with the presoak.

Usually one does a presoak to solve uneven development problems, so it's curious that in Fay Godwin's case, it caused them. Must have been something about the particular combination of developer, film, and agitation.

Les McLean · Sep 27, 2004

David A. Goldfarb said:
No uneven development problems with the presoak, and Fomapan T200 I've used only in 120, and the blue does come out with the presoak.

Usually one does a presoak to solve uneven development problems, so it's curious that in Fay Godwin's case, it caused them. Must have been something about the particular combination of developer, film, and agitation.

Since I made the first post I've remembered more detail of Fay's problem. she dev'd FP4 in ID11 with a presoak and experienced very uneven development as I described. The final solution recommended by both Ilford and interestingly, Kodak as Fay consulted both companies, was to continue to presoak but use the presoak water to mix the developer instrad of pouring it away. I also recall that she had a backlog of about 150 rolls of 120 film that she wouldn't process until the problem was solved.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 27, 2004

Interesting. I wonder why that might be.

Since we're in the realm of strange and hard-to-explain effects, I should probably mention that I use a water stop, so if I'm tray processing, I'll often presoak in the fresh "stop" (which is just water) tray, and then re-use that blue water as the stop so as not to have to set up an extra tray in my small space. If I'm processing in a daylight tank, though, I'll use fresh water for both, and I haven't noticed a difference.

Helen B · Sep 27, 2004

Maco recommend a presoak for Maco Cube - they claim that it is necessary, to achieve full film speed. The pre-soak comes out blue (the soluble AH layer), but I've never known the polyester film base to lose its faint blue cast. It is only faint though. As well as the pre-soak, I use two washes between dev and first fix, one wash between first and second fix and seven washes after second fix. I'm using TF-4 fixer. When developing in W2D2+, I use a carbonate & bisulphite pre-soak instead of water.

Who coats Maco film, apart from Ilford? Is it Foma?

Best,
Helen

rjr · Sep 28, 2004

Helen,

Fotokemika ("Efke") coats for Maco, some Emulsions are identical (or close to) to the Efke emulsions.

Helen B · Sep 28, 2004

Thanks Roman.

Are Efke coating the Rollei R3 film as well?

Best,
Helen

rjr · Sep 28, 2004

Helen,

I don´t know. There is much rumour around and the plain statement "Made in Germany" doesn´t make it better. What is "MAde in GErmany"? Packaging? Confectioning? Or coating (there is no second coating line other than those in Leverkusen at the Agfa plant!)?

What I have heard about results with the film isn´t stellar... I´ll have a look at the Maco booth, they want to exhibit prints made from the film there.

rjr · Sep 28, 2004

Tony,

TPPhotog said:
I was always told that negatives should be kept away from sunlight. Is this no longer the case? If not then I don't need to spend so much time in darkend rooms.

What can go wrong? The film is properly fixed and washed and it´s only for two hours. And it works. ;-)

jandc · Sep 28, 2004

Helen B said:
Thanks Roman.

Are Efke coating the Rollei R3 film as well?

Best,
Helen

I think you'll find the Rollei R3 is going to look a lot like Maco Cube. Traffic film for photo use. No, it is not Efke made.

rjr · Sep 29, 2004

rjr said:
Or coating (there is no second coating line other than those in Leverkusen at the Agfa plant!)?

Ok. Rumour mode ON.

There is a second coating plant around - in Berlin. A Kodak daughter company makes x-ray film there.

A friend called them today and inquired about what they do and if they´d fulfill external orders for bw-film.

They do and they recently got a larger order for this from an undisclosed company.

oh, regarding the Traffic survaillance film characteristics - Maco recently layed out the development of the Maco 400cube. It started with a "Bankers survaillance film", continued for traffic survaillance and only then was labeled for photographical use.

Tobik · Sep 30, 2004

pwitkop said:
On a side note, reading the pdf on the foma web site, it mentions cm sheet film sizes. I know 9x12 is at least aproximately the same size as 4x5, but does anyone know if it is exactly the same, or close enough that it would fit in standard 4x5 film holders? The results from foma pro 100 in 120 seem very promising so far, I'd like to possibly try it in large format as well.

Peter

Only 5x7 in. and 13x18 cm formats are practically the same (I use these). 4x5 in. is 10x12,5 cm.
But you can order any size, Foma will cut it. 3 packs (150 sheets) are minimum. I have just received 8x10, it was special order.
I use Fomapan 100 very often, one shot on 5x7 sheet is almost as cheap as one shot on 6x9cm. Sheet film is clear, but it contains also a lot of blue dye, which is easily washed out during presoak or washing.

Rob Archer · Sep 30, 2004

I've noticned the blue cast with Foma 200 in 120. Using a pre-soak doesn't seem to make significant diffence, so I suspect it's actually the base layer of the film. The main drawback of an otherwise excellent film is that it throwsthe filtration out when using multigrade papers. Whilst I haven't done an exhaustive test, I reckon I need to use settings for a grade lower than what I actually want. Anybody else had this experience?

Rob

clogz · Sep 30, 2004

Yes, it's most certainly the polyester film base that has this blue colour. See Foma's website www.foma.cz

rjr · Oct 3, 2004

Hans,

I learned today that the blue toned polyester base usually finds an application in x-ray films - the company I spoke of before uses blue Polyester of the same thickness that Foma specifies for the Fomapan rollfilm.

I currently have a Fomapan100 in the wash... can´t wait to pull it through the stabilizer and check it...

clogz · Oct 3, 2004

Roman,
You're right. I happened to see blue-toned X-ray negs at my dentist's the other day.
Could you wash out the colour?
Greetings
Hans

Blue fomapan 100 negs

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