Blue / Cyan Shadows

[Bob Carnie]

I am on to the printing stage of a rather large project.

I love bleach sepia , gold and a cold shadow.
I am having trouble finding a toner solution for the shadows that is permanent and not a dye, I am using a iron blue formula that though works well, it is difficult to use and also with washing goes away.

any suggestions of a permanent cold toner that will attack the shadows first?

 

[kevs]

If you're using Ilford Multigrade FB, Selenium toners will produce a subtle cold blue tone. It will convert the shadows first, then the lighter tones, but it isn't easy to detect visually so you might be better off using the sepia toner first (dilute the bleach 5:1 to slow its action), then selenium. The selenium toner will then lessen the sepia tone, but I think it's an effective combination. I used Tetenal Sulphide as the sepia toner.

Ilford Galerie FB, OTOH, will give a red-brown with selenium. I can't say about selenium with other papers, sorry. I believe gold will give blue tones with a warm-tone paper, although I've never tried it.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sorry I should have added that the selenium is well know to me, I am looking for something colder.

If you're using Ilford Multigrade FB, Selenium toners will produce a subtle cold blue tone. It will convert the shadows first, then the lighter tones, but it isn't easy to detect visually so you might be better off using the sepia toner first (dilute the bleach 5:1 to slow its action), then selenium. The selenium toner will then lessen the sepia tone, but I think it's an effective combination. I used Tetenal Sulphide as the sepia toner.

Ilford Galerie FB, OTOH, will give a red-brown with selenium. I can't say about selenium with other papers, sorry. I believe gold will give blue tones with a warm-tone paper, although I've never tried it.

 

[Mike Wilde]

I have had some success with gold toners, but the price is a bitch, particualrly at the moment. You might go though enough to find a way to re-capture it from spent solution.

Gold tones everywhere at once though, so you may need to do frisket masking which as we all know is no fun either.

 

[brian steinberger]

Selenium, sepia, and gold, along with brown toners are your archival toners. Only way to work a cold tone in the shadow would be as Kevin said, you use a neutral tone paper, maybe try a cold tone developer then split sepia, selenium. You could do sepia then gold, I've had success with this combo on Oriental FB VC BUT you much use a high accelerator (sodium hydroxide) level to the sepia step first since the gold toner wants to turn your lovely sepia to a nasty pink orange. Adding high amounts of accelerator keeps your highlights towards a more reddish color rather than pinkish orange, still not "sepia" though.

Gold will produce cold hues on WT papers but again will turn lovely sepias orange and pink once gold toned.

If it were me, I would either use the sepia/blue toner split, or if it HAD to be archival split tone sepia then selenium a neutral paper in a cold tone developer.

 

[PVia]

Bob, have you taken a look at the Moersch line. There are a lot of examples in their online gallery. I remember a nice blue toner in the line, but don't have any idea if it's what you're looking for in terms of ease of use or permanence.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Looks like this is a tough one.

I am mixing a two stop dev metol based for solorizations, and I have tried all the above mentioned .

I could do it today with the iron blue mixes I have tried but they all wash out and from my perspective not permanent.
I am bleaching, sepia, wash gold ---- then the final for the shadows , selenium is nice but gives a warm bias, iron blue is wicked but really unpredictable and washes out.

I have tried every paper that I can think of that will be available in large rolls.
I am kind of stuck on ilford mg4 matt as my preferred paper.

the cold shadows is what is vexing me.


the attachment'swill show you how I envision the final look.
Both are with a two stage development with light blast halfway through, one has more bleaching/sepia and gold at the front end *sunflower* and the other has iron blue heavy at the back end *wheel*
I would be happy it the whole show is between these two looks.

But how do I get the blue in with a permanent dilution.

I think a few years ago I had a conversation with Tim Rudman and at that time we both agreed that though blue would eventually fade away and the silver behind would still be there so something like a semi permanant solution for the shadows.. I will go with this if this is the only way..
Where is Ian and Ralph, I need you guys.

regards

Bob

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Hi Bob,

Hypo-Alum Sepia and Gold could give you that split blue you want.

Advantage : No Bleach and good control of toning.
Problem : Hypo-Alum needs to be very hot and toning time is long around 15 minutes.

Hope that helps.

G.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Very promising mon ami

thanks

Jerry

Hi Bob,

Hypo-Alum Sepia and Gold could give you that split blue you want.

Advantage : No Bleach and good control of toning.
Problem : Hypo-Alum needs to be very hot and toning time is long around 15 minutes.

Hope that helps.

G.

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Some more about Alum. You just need to replenish so it's a keeper and it improves with use. Meaning cheap on the long run
First time you use it just toss some small test prints to ripen the toner then you good to go.
And it doesn't stink the whole place...

G.

 

[Ian Grant]

Iron blue toners are unstable as you've found, you can use a dye-coupler toner, this was what Bob Carlos Clarke used, essentially you bleach and then re-develop in a colour developer which has the right balance of couplers, blue is very easy.

I've posted the details somewhere here on APUG, but I think I have the scan of the 1960's BJP pages here in Turkey, as well I'm sure I have the original in a lte 1920's or a 30's BJP Almanac. You'd need to buy only the coupler, and then dissolve them.

It seems I told you all this 3 years ago

alpha-Napthol is Blue.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

I forgot what I ate for breakfast, you expect me to remember three years?

Iron blue toners are unstable as you've found, you can use a dye-coupler toner, this was what Bob Carlos Clarke used, essentially you bleach and then re-develop in a colour developer which has the right balance of couplers, blue is very easy.

I've posted the details somewhere here on APUG, but I think I have the scan of the 1960's BJP pages here in Turkey, as well I'm sure I have the original in a lte 1920's or a 30's BJP Almanac. You'd need to buy only the coupler, and then dissolve them.

It seems I told you all this 3 years ago

alpha-Narthol is Blue.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thanks Ian

once again your the best


Bob