Bleaching to counter dry-down

Pieter12 · Nov 17, 2021

Has anyone used a bit of bleaching, either local or the entire print, to lighten highlights and 3/4 tones that seem darker because of dry-down? I usually don't notice much dry-down effect with Ilford MG FB Classic, but this last run of prints I made on Ilford Art paper seems to exhibit more of the effect.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2021

Yes.
And I've used it as well by factoring it in when making my prints.
I relied on it quite heavily in the prints I have made of this photo made using a Brownie Hawkeye:

(this is actually from a scan, adjusted to resemble the toned print)

DonW · Nov 18, 2021

I learned from Barnbaum to use a low wattage white light in the darkroom to evaluate wet prints. This reduces the likelyhood of getting surprises from drydown.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 18, 2021

I also learnt that from Barnbaum. But I've never bleached to counter dry down. To counter dry down, one needs to reduce main exposure slightly. With Ilford MG, that was about a 6% reduction.

David Allen · Nov 18, 2021

Giving a very light bleach to prints was popular amongst members of the Photographic Alliance of Great Britain. I first learnt of its use from Lucie M. Jones F.R.P.S. and T. Herbert Jones F.R.P.S., F.R.S.A., A.P.A.G.B. Sadly one finds very little about them these days. Quite strange as, when the Spanish photographer José Ortiz-Echagüe died, only Herbert was in a position to write extensively about his work (Herbert had a large collection of his Carbón Fresson prints).

How I have dealt with dry down since 2000 is by having a microwave in the darkroom that I use to dry my test strips. Since I started doing this I have never had any prints that, when dry, did not meet my intended results.

Bests,

David.

Temporary website address: http://dsallen.carpentier-galerie.de

Anon Ymous · Nov 18, 2021

Am I the only one who evaluates test strips when they are dry? I used a hair drier to speed things up. Bleaching might work, but seems way too convoluted of a solution and definitely takes far longer.

logan2z · Nov 18, 2021

Anon Ymous said:
I used a hair drier to speed things up.

Yup, I use a hair dryer as well, although I don't see a big dry-down effect when using Ilford Multigrade fiber paper.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 18, 2021

I've used light overall bleaching to salvage lightly age-fogged paper with good results as well as to add a bit of extra snap to prints that weren't quite contrasty enough when I was printing mainly on graded paper and the next grade up was just too much contrast.

So, a light bleach should give similar results to slightly overexposed prints (which is what actually is the case with drydown). Weak bleaches have a tendency to act in the highlights and lighter midtones first, and therefore add a bit of contrast.

The problem with overall bleaching is that it is difficult to do evenly. Try to keep your bleach times short; the longer things work, the less even it will be.

FWIW, once I get close to a final print, I dry my prints completely and evaluate them in gallery lighting; no problems with drydown

Have fun,

Doremus

DREW WILEY · Nov 18, 2021

Bleaching selectively, to bring out certain details otherwise a bit dull, sometimes makes sense. But overall bleaching to counteract dry-down is like amputating your leg to remove a cat scratch. It's faster and easier just to reprint it, with less risk of unevenness and tonal anomalies. I always keep Farmer's Reducer on hand for when I do need it. But anyone who goes overboard with that seems to be missing something in basic technique. Besides, there is simply no substitute for viewing a fully air-dried print, already toned n' all, under proper lighting when your eyes are fresh. But having a hair dryer or mild heat gun available for test strips, or in my case, a basic little toaster over for 20 seconds or so, is well worth it when in doubt, during the printing session itself.

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2021

Bleaching to counter dry down is something I have never considered. Maybe I will try it.

awty · Nov 18, 2021

I do it all the time.
Use a weak solution as it will work very quickly on most FB papers. So stop before you think you need to and wash.
Sponge dry your print if you are selective bleaching or it will run to where you dont want it.
It can give a colour shift especially if you have toned your prints.
Its not good for improving shadow detail.
As others have said best to allow your test print to dry and adjust your exposure to suite.

Pieter12 · Nov 18, 2021

My issue arose when I decided to reprint an image I had printed on Ilford MG FB Classic with good results. Upon studying the photo, I thought Ilford Art, with its bit or warmth and texture would be more suited to the image. After factoring in the extra stop of exposure required by the art paper, I expected the contrast to be the same. Turns out, it is just a bit flatter than Classic FB. But I did not come to that conclusion until I compared the two side by side. That is why I wanted to see if bleaching might be a way to bring back some highlight and quarter-tones I felt were missing. It is not the entire print, just a pretty well-defined area so I don't anticipate issues bleaching, but I will proceed with caution.

DREW WILEY · Nov 18, 2021

You can use dilute reducer in a tray and just gently dip part of the print into it, or else do the sponge or foam brush method, with a running water line nearby to quickly rinse off portions you don't want to affect. But there is often a risk of the bleached area acquiring a warmer tone than the other areas due to the silver particle size reduction involved, which can sometimes stand out like a sore thumb. It depends on the specific paper and developer originally involved. But remember, that after reduction, you need to re-fix the paper, and wash it all over again.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 18, 2021

Pieter12 said:
My issue ... Turns out, it is just a bit flatter than Classic FB. ... It is not the entire print, just a pretty well-defined area so I don't anticipate issues bleaching, but I will proceed with caution.

You likely don't need to bleach the entire print, just selectively bleach the areas that you want to lighten. Print on a flat, 45°-angle surface (bottom of a tray, etc.), bleach brush in one hand and the water hose in the other. Bleach where you need, keeping the areas below and to the sides rinsing with the water. Stop before you see as much change as you want. Soak for five minutes or so and then re-fix. Repeat as needed. Takes practice, but selective bleaching is a great tool.

Doremus

Louis Nargi · Nov 18, 2021

logan2z said:
Yup, I use a hair dryer as well, although I don't see a big dry-down effect when using Ilford Multigrade fiber paper.

I also use a hair dryer

George Collier · Nov 19, 2021

I use the low wattage bulb also, 3' above the print, which is laid onto a piece of pexiglass, angled about 60º, standing back a bit and waiting for the print to drain well. Very reliable for me, once I got the right wattage and distance.
Looking down into the fix tray is the worst.

awty · Nov 19, 2021

Pieter12 said:
My issue arose when I decided to reprint an image I had printed on Ilford MG FB Classic with good results. Upon studying the photo, I thought Ilford Art, with its bit or warmth and texture would be more suited to the image. After factoring in the extra stop of exposure required by the art paper, I expected the contrast to be the same. Turns out, it is just a bit flatter than Classic FB. But I did not come to that conclusion until I compared the two side by side. That is why I wanted to see if bleaching might be a way to bring back some highlight and quarter-tones I felt were missing. It is not the entire print, just a pretty well-defined area so I don't anticipate issues bleaching, but I will proceed with caution.

Matt papers tend to do that anyway, so bleaching might not help much. Tends to be more off white than vivid white you get from gloss paper.

Also you can redevelop if you go a little too far, but no guarantee you'll get back highlight detail.
also also you need to refix after bleaching.

Pieter12 · Nov 19, 2021

Ilford Art is definitely eggshell white vs the brighter white of Classic. But all things considered, I think I might be able to bring back some of the snap of the image on the art paper. The blacks are so incredibly deep with this paper, I love that aspect.

gone · Nov 19, 2021

Great info on the bleaching. I'll try that next time., but like David Allen, the microwave and I have become good buddies in the darkroom. I save the hairdryer for test prints. The microwave eliminates the need to adjust for dry down, and after a while you get to where you don't even need that if you're in the darkroom for a while.

I'll sometimes hedge my bets if it's a keeper by making 2 or 3 prints w/ different exposures and maybe filtering to compare later. You just need to keep basic notes for this. I'm old school, 6% for a drydown is probably correct, but I really need to see what things look like w/ my own eyes. And I've learned that if it's toward the end of a print run, I'm usually tired and probably not seeing things as they are.

logan2z · Nov 19, 2021

The nice thing about something like the RH Designs Analyzer Pro is that it takes dry-down into account since it's calibrated to actual print tones - assuming it's accurately calibrated, which I'm not sure mine quite is. I need to go through that procedure again one of these days...

Pieter12 · Nov 19, 2021

momus said:
6% for a drydown

6% seems like it would be close to undetectable to me. For example, 6% of a 20s exposure would be 1.2s. I can have that kind of variation in my burn and dodge times alone.

mrosenlof · Nov 19, 2021

I was thinking the same about 6%. I view my test strips and prints wet under fairly dim light and that has worked well for me.

awty · Nov 19, 2021

Pieter12 said:
6% seems like it would be close to undetectable to me. For example, 6% of a 20s exposure would be 1.2s. I can have that kind of variation in my burn and dodge times alone.

From my use of Art @ 20secs it would be around 2-3 secs dry down. Foma fb matt would be more into 3-4 secs. Theres no substituting allowing dry down on your test strip and working to that.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 20, 2021

A 5% overall print exposure change is pretty noticeable to me; I make adjustments in 5% increments often.

I think determining a percentage exposure change for drydown is arbitrary, however. I find that drydown is more subjective than that, the real factor being how the whites and near-whites in the print look when dry as compared to wet. When I get close to the final contrast, exposure and manipulations for a print, I dry the whole thing down for evaluation. Often, I'll have three or four dry prints on the white board for evaluation. My motto: waste time, not paper.

Best,

Doremus

Bleaching to counter dry-down

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