Bleaching - tanning, not sure if this is right

Gene_Laughter said:

I assume the Kentmere Fineprint paper is neutral tone, not warmtone? I don't have a clue as to what you're doing wrong? I outlined my methodology and procedures in Bromoil 101 in great detail. Sorry, But I have too much on my plate keep up with you.

Good luck! :>)

Gene

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Yes, it is neutral tone. I understand being busy Gene. I appreciate your thoughts so far. I'm going to continue documenting this case on the off chance that it might benefit someone else some day.

Now, I am experimenting and I think I am onto something. I took an identical image only printed one stop more open so it came out much darker and denser than the one I chose initially. I had initially set that one aside as "do not touch". But I experimented with reducing the strength of the hypo wash by diluting with more water. I then fixed with that dilution. And then washed it 30 minutes in water. The resulting image which began considerably darker than the first one came out in the end noticeably lighter and less sepia colored. Subsequent to that I've done another very dark print and reduced the time of the fixing from 5 minutes to 3.5 minutes and it has come out the lightest of the bunch. I've got two or three more prints I can experiment with.

I am initially thinking the strength of the hypo fix might allow for a deeper image to be revealed. One that is not completely bleached away. This only comes to light in the very long final wash. It makes sense to me that way.

I did the same last weekend bleach/tan with fineprint paper and it came out fine.

My bleach/tan method:

paper presoak 5 minutes
10 minutes bleach/tan
20 min wash
5 minutes fix
45 min final wash

fix is thiosulfate 100gram for 1 liter.

Be aware that this must be done under darkroom light!

Willie Jan said:

Be aware that this must be done under darkroom light!

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Oh wow, maybe that's the problem I've been having. I've been operating with instructions that bleaching/tanning can be done in daylight. I did think at first that was not the way things should be since other bleaching operations must all be done in dark or safelight but since I read that the bromoil bleaching doesn't need safelight conditions I decided to avoid that because who likes to be in the dark? Hmmm.. I will give this a try.

Darkroom light? Meaning? I have bleached many hundreds of bromoil matrices ... and never under safelight conditions. I bleach them with a ceiling fluroescsent light on. I wouldn't allow sunlight in, but have never had a problem with redevelopment using indirect indoor lighting. Expose/develop/stop/rinse/fix/wash - and dry overnight. Soak 5 mins./bleach 8 mins./rinse/fix/wash.

Whew! Wipe the sweat off my brow.. I couldn't take it in the darkroom that long with the ambient temperature that it is.. Well, I just exposed and developed two prints, each one stop away from the other. I then bleached both but intermittently with the darker one going first. It would not completely bleach out so maybe that one was too dark to begin with. However after washing it while bleaching the other, it did get dimmer. I fixed the first print in hypo while the other was washing. It did darken up but nowhere near where it did before, just faintly. Anyway, I just got out of darkroom to get some fresh cold air. Soon as I cool down I'm going to fix the other print. Then we will see where this goes.

I think Willie Jan's tip is paying off. Safelight conditions wound up providing the first two matrices which are anywhere remotely as dim as I've seen them in books and videos. Gene, I read your post about safelight. I had been bleaching/tanning with windows open before, in the middle of the day. I am a lover of fresh air, no matter the temperature. So I'm prone to have windows wide open and blinds up. I think there was simply too much sunlight coming in and that is what got the prints to darken up the way they did in all my previous attempts prior to tonight. Tonight though, everything was safelight condition until it came time for air drying and now I've got them hanging in the living room with a single 25 watt fluorescent light on. They seem to be staying at the same "straw" color they were after leaving the darkroom.

Derek Watkins in his book talks about going from print exposure to developer to stop to bleach to tanning then to fixing (normal fixing) then wash. In my haste tonight on my first two prints I went from print exposure to developer to stop to fix to brief hypo to wash to bleach/tan to wash to hypo fix to wash. Then I re-read your instructions Gene and thats when I saw you suggest starting with dried prints first. So, I'll be drying the rest of these prints I worked up tonight and bleach them another day. Meanwhile I was lucky to find some other prints I worked up on the Ilford FB matte a week ago. They are soaking right now. I'll be bleaching them before I go to bed and then we will see how they compare to the ones I bleached without drying first.

This is quite an adventure! I have had numerous times I could assume the "loser" posture and just move on to something "easier". I am glad I stuck with this, because it's starting to look like it was a very simple ingredient that I had wrong. And even though my inkings so far have not been that great, or not the way I want them to be, everyone I've shown them to is just overtook by a deep emotion which I find kind of.... well... it makes me a wee bit giddy inside to see the effect it has on others..

That's a good thing...

The best way is to test it all yourself. I read books who say it can be done with normal light, and others who say it must be done under safelight....

I am now doing a test with several papers such as adox and kentmere to see what it does for bromoil. Some say it will not work, but until now all the papers i have been working with were able to produce a reasonable print.

WJ - I'm curious. Which books advocate bleaching using a safelight?

Continuing the topic.. this morning after prints have thoroughly dried... A couple of the prints are fairly darker than "ghost image", and a couple of the prints are perceptibly dark to the point you can see the underlying image from any angle and under any light condition. They look kind of like pale sepia or lith prints. The darkest ones were Ilford MGIV FB Matte, but then they also began as the darkest previous to bleaching. They were also the ones bleached the last. Exhaustion of bleach/tan chemicals perhaps? Exhaustion of hypo fix? I'm tending towards hypo angle for them because the hypo was perceptibly blue already from the prints that went before it.

Perry, I normally bleach about 8 to 10 images on 8x10 inch paper to a liter of bleach solution. I then toss the bleach and fix.

Gene_Laughter said:

WJ - I'm curious. Which books advocate bleaching using a safelight?

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http://www.amazon.com/Bromoil-Found...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256114022&sr=8-1

Thanks WJ! I have met and know Derek Watkins, the author, and I was a good friend of his bromoil mentors, Gilbert Hooper and Maija McDougal. Now, to what Derek said in his book: (page 64) "It is best to carry out the bleach-tanning and subsequent wash is SUBDUED lighting." I agree with this statement and Derek and I are on the same page. IF one uses the short process, which eliminates the first fix, obviously one would need to use safelight conditions. I'm not going to go into the short process here as I don't use it. Perry, I strongly recommend that you read either my book or Derek's book instead of trying to learn each step and stage piece-meal as you go along in the process.

Cheers,

Gene

I have both books... A signed one from Gene and the foundation course (got it from a flea book market).

I am at the point where i am saying to myself what is the purpose of using bromoil in stead of baryta paper and for what kind of photos is it best?
In a couple of days i will post some, they are drying right now (the ink). Otherwise you will get a copy of your photo on the flatbed scanner

Gene_Laughter said:

Thanks WJ! I have met and know Derek Watkins, the author, and I was a good friend of his bromoil mentors, Gilbert Hooper and Maija McDougal. Now, to what Derek said in his book: (page 64) "It is best to carry out the bleach-tanning and subsequent wash is SUBDUED lighting." I agree with this statement and Derek and I are on the same page. IF one uses the short process, which eliminates the first fix, obviously one would need to use safelight conditions. I'm not going to go into the short process here as I don't use it. Perry, I strongly recommend that you read either my book or Derek's book instead of trying to learn each step and stage piece-meal as you go along in the process.

Cheers,

Gene

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Gene, it might sound like I'm working at this piecemeal like because I'm making every possible mistake on my first tries! I assure you this is normal in my world on just about everything I touch until I get the hang of it. Then I seem to shift into overdrive and zoom outa this world! Anyway, I bought Derek's book last year (August? September?) after I stumbled across your gallery items and fell in love with the Bromoil process. So you are my muse! At that time I did not know you were also an author. I've only been on APUG for a little over one year now and have only been back into photography in general the same time after like at least a 20 year hiatus from all darkroom activities. I read Derek's book as a "bedtime story" over the past year maybe 10 or 20 times cover to cover 5 or 10 pages at a time, and getting my mind wrapped around it. The illustrations really helped in that process. I always try to get my mind wrapped around things before I attempt to do it myself, well, except for matters of the heart Anyway it was only until much later that I found out you also have a book and a video. By that time though I was poor again and a huge tax bill and had to put aside buying any more books or gear. But things are now changed since I paid off the Government tax goons for last year, and now I can afford it. I would like to buy your book now, but I lack the VCR player to make use of your video. You mentioned to me in an email some time ago a price and method by ordering through you but I can't find that now. I'm envious of Willie - a signature copy! Wow! Can I get one of them? How do I order through you again? (If you don't mind repeating yourself).

1SharpMonkey said:

Gene, it might sound like I'm working at this piecemeal like because I'm making every possible mistake on my first tries! I assure you this is normal in my world on just about everything I touch until I get the hang of it. Then I seem to shift into overdrive and zoom outa this world! Anyway, I bought Derek's book last year (August? September?) after I stumbled across your gallery items and fell in love with the Bromoil process. So you are my muse! At that time I did not know you were also an author. I've only been on APUG for a little over one year now and have only been back into photography in general the same time after like at least a 20 year hiatus from all darkroom activities. I read Derek's book as a "bedtime story" over the past year maybe 10 or 20 times cover to cover 5 or 10 pages at a time, and getting my mind wrapped around it. The illustrations really helped in that process. I always try to get my mind wrapped around things before I attempt to do it myself, well, except for matters of the heart Anyway it was only until much later that I found out you also have a book and a video. By that time though I was poor again and a huge tax bill and had to put aside buying any more books or gear. But things are now changed since I paid off the Government tax goons for last year, and now I can afford it. I would like to buy your book now, but I lack the VCR player to make use of your video. You mentioned to me in an email some time ago a price and method by ordering through you but I can't find that now. I'm envious of Willie - a signature copy! Wow! Can I get one of them? How do I order through you again? (If you don't mind repeating yourself).

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I bought it years ago from Gene himself after i had a workshop bromoil here in the netherlands from mudar(also here on apug).