Bleach---->MT3---->Bleach---->MT7---->MT3---->MT7

I did get the effect I want 'finally' but does this seem excessive? Also, at what point do things start to break down, loss of shadow-detail, etc? (ie: chemically over-processed)

I am trying to achieve a lime-green cast in my mid-tone to highlight range then go back in and get a crimson tone in the shadows later. But first things first... Being a 'newbie' to toning, I was wondering if there might be an easier step-by-step way to get the same results. Or are this many steps considered normal procedure? I realize there are a ton of variables involved.

If any of you know of a better way to achieve lime-green feel free to expound. (and yes, I suppose I could use Edwal's green toner straight but it wouldn't be as much fun would it?)

(Oh, and I omitted the wash baths in between as they're a given)

Paper: Foma MG Classic
Developer: Ilford Multigrade
Stop: Kodak
Fix: Ilford Rapid

Thanks.

Mods, not sure if this should go here or in alt process, feel free to move.

You're probably not going to get an archival print this way, mixing toners without washing first. That's all I can add.

Green is the color I always try to avoid...

Thomas, VaryaV explicitly mentions that there were wash bathes in between toning steps. Since the blue toner is not archival anyway this may not matter all that much. I'm quite excited VaryaV did get green tones as my humble experiments with Sulfur and Iron toner a few years ago failed miserably. Is there a chance VaryaV could upload some sample scans of these resulting images?

Other ways to get what you want although lime green is a bit difficult.
A green tone emulsion from Steigmann
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Green/green.html
Maybe you'll get archival Lime green by mixing uranium toner with some blue toner like Gold.
Found this Info on Wolfgang Moersch's Site "SE30 Meritol on warmtone paper
Using Lith+Meritol on Select VC results in yellowish highlights, slightly red mid tones and green shadows."

Good Luck and have fun

Thomas Bertilsson said:

You're probably not going to get an archival print this way, mixing toners without washing first. That's all I can add.

Green is the color I always try to avoid...

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First off, let me be more specific… it’s more of a yellow-yellow-green.
Imagine this Mr. Bertilsson,... yellow-yellow-green, very subtle and delicate, following along the edges of a crimson colored rust brown… think alizarin. Now how can you 'avoid' that combo, eh?

Rudeofus said:

Thomas, VaryaV explicitly mentions that there were wash bathes in between toning steps. Since the blue toner is not archival anyway this may not matter all that much. I'm quite excited VaryaV did get green tones as my humble experiments with Sulfur and Iron toner a few years ago failed miserably. Is there a chance VaryaV could upload some sample scans of these resulting images?

Click to expand...

This is why I’ve had to go back and forth between the MT3/MT7 baths. The blue in the iron runs through a whole gamut of blue from dark indigo, cobalt to Prussian in just a manner of seconds and wipes out a lot of the sulfide. You have to pull at the right time and if it’s overwashed you can lose too much, and back in the MT3 it goes. You over-do it and back in the bleach it goes to start all over. (Well, as a newbie this is what I am doing anyway). I found I have to start with what for me would normally be a way underexposed print, the opposite of lith. That's where I am picking up the layering of the tones to be most effective.

MDR said:

Other ways to get what you want although lime green is a bit difficult.
A green tone emulsion from Steigmann
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Green/green.html
Maybe you'll get archival Lime green by mixing uranium toner with some blue toner like Gold.
Found this Info on Wolfgang Moersch's Site "SE30 Meritol on warmtone paper
Using Lith+Meritol on Select VC results in yellowish highlights, slightly red mid tones and green shadows."

Good Luck and have fun

Click to expand...

Spot on with the Meritol/warmtone combo! I LOVE the coldtone/warmtone dev/paper combos! I have only played with it for one session but the meritol has a totally different look then I am used to and I’m going to have to use a whole different process for shooting, processing, etc. It screams for sharp focused images, less exposure, less development which is the total opposite of the way I work. My vision is Minor White(ish). But am excited about the potential for sure!!

Not familiar with uranium toners will have to look into it with iron? The iron goes through a series of gorgeous shades of blues. The gold I shied away from just because of the price, it’s a lot higher than other toners to achieve the blues, but indeed the gold tone like is gorgeous. I’m going to have to try your lith+meritol combo, your description fits my mood.

Michael R 1974 said:

Varya, I can't really help much with exotic toning processes but I hope you will post some examples. Sounds pretty cool

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And then there’s the scanning issue for posting images. I am wondering how accurate I am going to be able to capture the colors. The yellow-yellow-green is VERY subtle. The last thing I want to have to do is major correction just to get back to the original print. I know some of you don’t bother to scan toned images and I can understand why. But, I will give it a try and see what it takes to get them accurate. I have 2 weeks off to play over the holidays so I will shoot for posting some after the holidays.

Thank you all for your support and if you run across any ideas please post. CHEERS!

Rudeofus said:

I'm quite excited VaryaV did get green tones as my humble experiments with Sulfur and Iron toner a few years ago failed miserably.

Click to expand...

You know what, Rudeofus, I just remembered I had to increase the alkali by a substantial amount guessing (~30%) in the second MT3 bath to push the green out even further. That final push is what did it. I had forgotten about that. You might try that if you haven't already. Just a thought.

My biggest difficulty was getting the blue toner so act evenly, there was no "half toned" part, only parts that were toned and others that weren't. The way I mixed it (some prepackaged set of bottles plus water) and comprehensive inexperience with toning probably contributed heavily to my failure.

I may have to try this again following your directions, as a green tone, especially in combination with red/brown could work very well for some motives.

I was just out in the d/r inspecting the prints and noticed another thing I wanted to point out. In observation, the paper developer choice has a lot to do with the color shift as well. The Ilford MG MT3/MT7 foma combo was where I got the yellow-greens I was aiming at. The meritol shifted the MT3/MT7 more towards the sepia/brown side of the yellow. But I didn't cycle it back either like I did the first run. Again, I haven't had but one session with it to see if I can push it more plus the chems are replenished at this point not as fresh as they were with the MG batch. It's obvious that there are so many variables involved it's a hit-or-miss gamble.

What I do like about this process is the flexibility it offers in being able to re-do screw ups!

No matter how hard I try I can't repeat the results I got my first time (beginners luck) to get those yellows. I've narrowed it down to the alkali. Has to been the alkali right?

My knowledge of the ph scale doesn't extend further then increasing ph for blueberries and acid-loving fruit trees in the soil!

My first trial at 30ml alkali stated to get light yellow didn't work, so I added an additional 30ml still didn't work to push it to dark yellow, so I got frustrated and went up to 180ml alkali (total) equivalent to dark brown and of course there I got yellow.

So, it has to be the alkali, correct? I didn't realize it until just a few minutes ago that I mixed todays sulphide batch at 60ml!

ps. Now that I got my scanner hooked up I'll get those images posted I've been talking about.

The dye toners are not archival and will fade like all dyes. Treat the prints as you would all color prints, keep them out of direct light.

Gerald C Koch said:

The dye toners are not archival and will fade.

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Oh yeah... I'm not archival either... I've faded considerably!



Sorry, Gerald, I couldn't resist.

VaryaV said:

Oh yeah... I'm not archival either... I've faded considerably!



Sorry, Gerald, I couldn't resist.

Click to expand...

So have I

VaryaV said:

No matter how hard I try I can't repeat the results I got my first time (beginners luck) to get those yellows. I've narrowed it down to the alkali. Has to been the alkali right?

Click to expand...

IIRC, blue toner doesn't act on Silver Halide, but on metallic Silver. If you do the steps as described, and the bleaching step is complete, the blue toner (MT7) won't do much. I've also seen Sulfur toner undo the effect of blue toner, what started out blue quickly turned brown.

Here is what you can do:

• If the MT7 step doesn't do much, bleach less. Remove the print from the bleach before all the Silver is bleached so the blue toner can do its job.
• If you see blue tones after the MT7 step which then go away in the Sulfur toner (MT3), your Sulfur toner is too aggressive. In this case you should actually use less alkali!

Rudeofus said:

IIRC, blue toner doesn't act on Silver Halide, but on metallic Silver. If you do the steps as described, and the bleaching step is complete, the blue toner (MT7) won't do much. I've also seen Sulfur toner undo the effect of blue toner, what started out blue quickly turned brown.

Here is what you can do:

• If the MT7 step doesn't do much, bleach less. Remove the print from the bleach before all the Silver is bleached so the blue toner can do its job.
• If you see blue tones after the MT7 step which then go away in the Sulfur toner (MT3), your Sulfur toner is too aggressive. In this case you should actually use less alkali!

Click to expand...

Indeed. That is the odd thing about it. The MT7 after MT3 removes the blue. However, it 'must' leave some reaction on the surface or penetrates the surface because when I put it back in the MT7 bath (after the MT3) it turned yellow and yellow-green (depending on the print). Now, I did repeat that (see thread title) it wasn't until the last MT7 bath that I got those colors. (First time around)

I will definitely take your advice and run the next series of prints through without bleaching. And, less alkali. I've got to get those yellows back. Of course, this group of prints today was already very dark too, which I think had a lot to do with it. The microscopic stuff I shoot dark, whereas the garden vines were shot in much, much brighter conditions which 'seems' more conducive to taking the tones better. ie; it has much more highlights-to-midtones real estate to work with.

Thanks

Scanning Images

I am in the progress of posting these images. I have 4-5 I will post. I wanted to show the results as I have not been able to achieve these results a second time. Here are the first two:

Loufa on the vine

1. First pass results 2160.7: though the film was poor stored, it does have a nice soft quality I think is suited for this type of work.

Equipment Used: M645/80mmf4macro
Exposure: f4-1/60th
Film & Developer: FP4+ - Finol 1+100 16:30 (film was 7yrs exp and poorly stored)
Paper & Developer: Foma MG 132 - Meritol 1+10
Toned: BL 1.5/MT3 1.0m/ BL 15s/ MT7 40s/MT3 30s/MT7 30s

2. Second pass 2160.7
Highlights are gone and the red-orange is not showing up in the scan of the midtones. I am unable to duplicate these results. Again, these scans aren't indicative of the coloring the resolution lost so much, esp the red-orange. and good god, they're no where near that bright (#2) they must be compressed more in the upload here because I looked at the image before I uploaded and the coloration is still there. So big bummer I can't get a better upload. It's much richer then that. There, much better now.

Holy Basil - Vana - (insectary)

3. and 4. Results for 2158.11
Equipment Used: M645/80mmf4macro
Exposure: f4-1/15th
Film & Developer: FP4+(64) - Pyrocat-HD 50m semi-stand
Paper & Developer: #1- Galerie#3 and #2 - Foma MG 132 - Ilford MG Dev
Toned: BL 1.5/MT3 1.0m/ BL 15s/ MT7 40s/MT3 30s/MT7 30s

These are the ones that had the beautiful yellow-green I was talking about. (well, it's sorta there)
I kept the toning process the same for both groups so I could see results across the board for various exposures.
#2 is more red-orange but that's the best I can get. the upload is butchering my colours.