Blank IR film

[PhotoBob]

So I shot and processed a few rolls of Efke IR 820 and Rollei IR and each time the rolls came out blank.
Same chemistry I processed Acros and it came out fine - so don't think its the chemistry.
The numbers along the edge show up, but not images.
This has happened the last three times I shot and processed IR B&W film, camera works fine because I shot and processed Acros and HP5 + with good results.
Chemistry okay
Camera okay
Processing procedures same as always
Any thoughts?

 

[MattKing]

Hi Bob,
Exposure.
What filter were you using, and what were the lighting conditions?
How did you meter, and how did you deal with correcting for the filter?
Are you confident that the filter actually works?

 

[mooseontheloose]

What filter/camera are you using? What film speed? Are you sure the lens cap wasn't on?

 

[AgX]

Too strong filter; no IR light reaching the film.

 

[PhotoBob]

What filter/camera are you using? What film speed? Are you sure the lens cap wasn't on?

I use an IR filter something like Hoya R72, ISO 06 for Efke, yes pretty sure as I recall specific shots.

 

[PhotoBob]

Too strong filter; no IR light reaching the film.

Hmmm never thought of that, maybe just a simple W25 will do.
I think I'll give it a try
Thanks

 

[MattKing]

Hmmm never thought of that, maybe just a simple W25 will do.
I think I'll give it a try
Thanks

An R72 filter should work with the Rollei film.
The Efke film should work with less filtration, but I wouldn't expect blank film with an R72.
Are you sure that you didn't double correct for the filter?

 

[pentaxuser]

When you say blank, I take it that you really mean no trace of image whatsoever? If this is the case then I had always thought that Efke had a IR sensitivity at least as good as if not better than Ilford SFX which works quite well with an R72.

So I struggle to think why the film has no traces of image unless the light never got to the film at all. It could be the lens cap but if a SLR we can rule that one out. The other cause would be the film was never wound through so never exposed.

Can anyone offer other explanations that can be reconciled with not trace of image whatsoever? Not a challenge to other repondents that my two options cover the issue, simply seeking for the explanation that fits the "no trace" scenario

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

It could be there was no IR radiation from the object at all....

Also a film may loose IR sensitivity by time.

 

[tezzasmall]

I use an IR filter something like Hoya R72, ISO 06 for Efke, yes pretty sure as I recall specific shots.

I really think that you are UNDER exposing still. When I've used IR films in the past I found x6 stops more were needed with an IR filter on. So the film being an ISO 25 film, would mean the ISO should be set at 1 to 1.5 = at least another two stops than you were giving it.

When I first got a roll of IR film, which I believe was ISO 400, I went out on a sunny day with camera, filter and a tripod and bracketed each exposure from ISO 400, right down to ISO 12, (remember this is based on an original ISO of 400 and not ISO 25 like your film) adjusting the shutter speed and aperture accordingly. It's well worth writing off one film to get it right the next time, as I found the good median ISO etc. with the first film and all subsequent films came out fine. So don't give up yet, but I think the film still needs more exposure than you are giving it.

BTW, this link is worth a read:

http://www.martinzimelka.com/pages/EFKE_IR_820.html

Good luck.

Terry S

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I shoot at EI 3 with Rollie IR and r72 filter. With Efke, I use a wratten 87C opaque filter, EI 1.5. If you are getting blank film, it's most likely an exposure issue... Shoot a frame with no filter. Bracket some shots using your chosen filter.

 

[DWThomas]

Two thoughts --
1) until you have a workable method dialed in, shoot one frame at the film's normal ISO without the filter. That gives a sanity check on "all the other stuff."

2) Your phrase "something like Hoya R72" jiggled my neurons a bit -- are you certain it's an R72 (720nm cutoff)? In days of yore there were IR filters that had cutoffs out in the 900 nm range that were not only quite opaque to the eye, but would look like a steel disk to today's IR films.

With the EFKE film, I found even a 760 nm filter worked OK but needed about another stop of exposure over a 720. With the Rollei IR, the 760 needed about 5 or 6 stops more exposure over the 720. That was a few years back and I haven't shot any recently, I've no idea if there have been further changes in those.

I'm in the camp that says you should see at least a little bit of something unless you are a dozen stops off. That is why I question if the filter is what you're saying it is.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The 720 nm cutoff is probably too long. The film may only be sensitive between 600 and 700 nm. This is the case with some IR films.

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

The article provided by Terry S refers to the same film that the OP has used. In that article the author refers to EI 03 as the best EI. The OP has already said he uses EI 06 so one stop under the best EI. "Something like a R72" does leave some room for doubt as to whether it is R72 or maybe has a much higher cut-off but certainly if it is the equivalent of R72 I can see no reason why one stop under the best EI should not leave even a trace of image.

pentaxuser

 

[PhotoBob]

I shoot at EI 3 with Rollie IR and r72 filter. With Efke, I use a wratten 87C opaque filter, EI 1.5. If you are getting blank film, it's most likely an exposure issue... Shoot a frame with no filter. Bracket some shots using your chosen filter.

Great idea thanks

 

[Luckless]

What camera and lens are you using? - Extreme long shot, but double checking that you're not using some obscure bit of gear that blocks IR and passes visible early on while troubleshooting something like this seems sensible. You haven't forgotten a hot mirror filter on the back of your lens, right?

Second long shot: You're getting completely clear negatives, right? Having developed a roll without first having suitable volumes of coffee, I have to admit to managing to pull a brain fart over flipping over and under exposure issues on some frames at the tail end of a roll before, so I've hopefully learned my lesson about making sure I have enough coffee before dealing with trying to solve photo glitches.


In addition to the sanity frame without a filter as Andrew O'Neill suggested, an insanely long exposure with the filter on is probably a good option alongside a more typical bracketing scheme to help rule out extreme metering error vs your filter being opaque to the film's IR range. If that doesn't net you any sign of life out of the film, then either you've gotten a bad batch of IR film that has reduced sensitivity, or you've got a funky filter for that film type.

 

[MattKing]

I'm guessing that Bob is using his Nikon FM2, but I could be wrong .

 

[PhotoBob]

I'm guessing that Bob is using his Nikon FM2, but I could be wrong .

Mamiya C330 Pro S with the lens cap OFF for making images.

 

[Sirius Glass]

OK having the lens cap off while taking photographs is always a good start.

 

[MattKing]

Hi Bob,
Continuing on with our in person conversation today .
One question, one suggestion and one comment.
The question is - is there any chance your filter has either a 760nm cutoff or a cutoff any further into the IR spectrum?
If so that would explain the problem with the Rollie film.
As far as the long outdated Efke film, it may be that the film is the problem, particularly if you gave it the same amount of exposure as the Rollei film.
The suggestion is - take the lens off the camera, set it to the shutter speed and aperture you think you used (1 second at f/22?), cock the shutter and look through the taking lens as you release the shutter. If you don't see a small amount of light coming through for the full second, you know that there is a problem with that shutter and aperture combination.
And the comment - the Mamiya TLR lenses have an M/X synch setting lever that can create problems. On at least one of my lenses, if I accidentally move that switch over to the M setting, the shutter stops working. I'd suggest checking that synch selector.
How did the printing go after we left?

 

[Maris]

I've had blank IR frames behind a Chinese filter labelled IR720 that was actually an IR950. Yep, the cut-off was at 950nm and there is no existing IR film that goes out that far. Those cheap IR filters work well if they are correctly labelled but I fear some suppliers don't know for sure what they are delivering. For example the IR680 and IR720 filters that I bought off eBay were identical. Caveat emptor.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

'tis why I've stayed away from the cheap IR filters from China.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I've had blank IR frames behind a Chinese filter labelled IR720 that was actually an IR950. Yep, the cut-off was at 950nm and there is no existing IR film that goes out that far. Those cheap IR filters work well if they are correctly labelled but I fear some suppliers don't know for sure what they are delivering. For example the IR680 and IR720 filters that I bought off eBay were identical. Caveat emptor.

Yet another reason to buy filters from the big boys [B+W, Heliopan, Hasselblad, Tiffen, Hoya, ...]

 

[gorbas]

Recently I bought @ Ebay Chinese brand Zomei 720nm IR filter. First results with Maco 400 Eagle film are very, very similar to Kenko's R72 filter. Just happy customer!

 

[Neil Grant]

I use an IR filter something like Hoya R72, ISO 06 for Efke, yes pretty sure as I recall specific shots.

..'6' sounds a bit optimistic for Efke but you should still get 'something'. Since both your IR films failed most likely is the filter. A genuine Hoya R72 is fine with both Rollei ir400 and the now discontinued Efke. Maybe your is a fake one.
In the days of Kodak HIE a very similar thing could happen. The sensitising dye was very frail and could lose it effect quite suddenly when the film 'aged'. You were then left with a film having only 'native' blue sensitivity, completely blocked out by the normal use of a red 25 filter or something transmitting even less like an 87. I don't think the sensitising dyes in Efke or Rollei films are really frail,enough for this to happen though.