Blank film

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

'Still having a good dirge after working hard for some shots & for the 2nd time (not consecutive), I pull the film out & its blank. Film was FP4, using PyroHD semi. 1:1:240 or 2.5cc part A & B to 600 water. The first time I got blank film, I thought I must have gotten pre-occupied and mistakenly mixed all Part A w/ water or maybe all Part B. So this time I know I used the right amounts of the right solutions. When developer poured out, it had an aqua or blue/green color. I'm used to a faint purple w/ HP5. Maybe the color diff. is just the difference in film. 'Don't know.

Has anyone run across this happening? Does the developer color point to an error? Have you found anything else that makes clear film? Specific to a film/dev. combination?

I appreciate your sharing what you know. This is alot of work & lost shots - gotta get to the bottom of it.

Kawaiithulhu · Jun 20, 2016

The color is just the film's anti-halation washing off, different films have different colors. This color layer is used to stop light from bouncing around underneath the sensitive emulsion and causing glow/halos. This color is normal.

You have to describe "blank" to get some help. Do the edges have frame numbers or other info on them, or is the film entire clear with no markings at all? Is there even the faintest image or darkening in the frame area?

If your film has no markings on the edges then development never happened and the fixer did its job and removed everything. This could be because of 100% completely exhausted or bad developer or you poured in the fixer first.

If your film does have edge markings and all your frames are completely blank then either the film wasn't loaded into the camera properly and never advanced (or the camera is faulty and doesn't pull the film), or you forgot to take the lens cap off. Or the camera shutter doesn't open.

Those are the most obvious items I've personally run across, notably the "didn't load the film properly" once or twice

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

Kawaiithulhu, I appreciate your help.

'no edge markings at all - completely blank. It definitely got dev first - requires 2-part mix before dev.

Its an slr, so lens cap was off.

I'll run a short roll of 35 & see if it does HP5 like it normally does. 'Hate to have lost yesterday's roll, but if the Pyro is contaminated or not functioning, I've got to know that.

Again, Kawaiithulhu, I apprecaite your help. 'Didn't think I'd have this kind of issue.

markbarendt · Jun 20, 2016

I say ignore the color. If it bothers you as a test try a prewash once to see what happens. IMO the color is a distraction though.

When the chemicals are used in proper order you should get edge markings without question and if there are no edge markings then it is almost certainly a developer failure.

Rick A · Jun 20, 2016

Why are you mixing the developer so dilute? Why are you even trying "stand" or even "semi stand" development? This isn't difficult, just mix as directed for normal development, 1+1+100 and use the recommended time. Before you develop another roll of film, do a developer clip test. This can be done in daylight, mix as directed, drop a clip of film leader into the soup and see if it turns black. If nothing happens, you have dead developer.
Massive Dev Chart Search Results
Film Developer Dilution ASA/ISO 35mm 120 Sheet Temp Notes
FP4+ Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100 64 8 8 8 20C [notes]
FP4+ Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100 100 18 18 18 20C [notes]
FP4+ Pyrocat-HD 2+2+100 100 6 6 6 22C [notes]
FP4+ Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100 125 20 20 20 20C [notes]
FP4+ Pyrocat-HD 1.5+1.5+100 125 11.5 11.5 11.5 21C [notes]
The Massive Dev Chart

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

Mark, thank you! My thinking is about the dev. also. 'Can't imagine it going south by itself, so I have to guess some handling on my part did something to contaminate. As usual, your help on all things exposure/dev./printing are excellent & very much appreciated. 'Hope you hear that alot.

Rick, the 1:1:240 was orig. suggested from a member, and has delivered very pleasing results on a regular basis - though mostly on HP5. I have also used normal, full strength, and gotten very good results. It was chosen this time for excellent edge definition & the way it renders finished reflective surfaces - this was a car show. It included shots I loved, but only have in digital & I wanted it in MF. I have used the data in the second line of your entry there - and it works beautifully, but the metal rendering in semi seems stronger - that's why I went that way. The gallery shots of the steam locomotives were done this way on both HP5 & FP4. 'No disrespect or issues w/ using it w/ normal agitation - works great - as you say. I won't get to test until later on today, but look forward to the test.
I appreciate your weighing in - the std. dilution & agitation method *does* work beautifully.

Rick A · Jun 20, 2016

Okay, so now my question is, why are you experimenting with film containing photos that matter, and not dialing it in first. I use pyro developers because of their ability to give dazzling highlights without blocked up shadows, never saw the need to change to stand or semi stand to get great results.

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

'Good question, Rick, except for the train shots - its not experimental. The same successful process has gone south.

bvy · Jun 20, 2016

Rick A said:
Before you develop another roll of film, do a developer clip test. This can be done in daylight, mix as directed, drop a clip of film leader into the soup and see if it turns black. If nothing happens, you have dead developer.

This. Although I would modify it to read "Before you develop ANY roll of film..."

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

clips soaking in full strength now (1:1:100)

While drawing concentrate into dosing syringe, I had a false fill (air) from the fluid level getting low (gulp). I've noticed before, but thought I've checked as I mixed. It raises technique/method question. Formulary sells plastic hose for the tip of syringes to get to the bottom of bottles. In the small quantities used, this would yield some solution in the tube & some in the syringe - but not a direct visual of fluid at the graduated level marks on the syringe. Is is safe to assume that reading the plunger on the graduation marks is accurate enough? Even though its air in the syringe or at least at the top of it. 'Don't know how much variability that would introduce. I have tubing that would work (aquarium), but am perhaps a bit spooked about introducing any further variation.

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

Clips are turning black. 'Seems like I managed to do a costly mixing error. Sigh.

Will be interested to hear of any others using a tube on a syringe to get one-shot quantities measured.

As always, I very much appreciate the help.

Kawaiithulhu · Jun 20, 2016

The most important part to mixing is repeatability. Darkroom suggestions always say "test your own process" because almost no one in this hobby is a professional lab rat capable of scientific precision and doing individual tests will take care of that variance. In this case, when mixing you should always use that tube even from full bottles so that every darkroom session is repeatable. Because you always use the tube you always mix the same way you should not care how anyone else uses a tube, ever.

However...

If you're using such small volumes that you can't see any in the syringe then I suggest using a pipette instead, which are specifically designed for these small volumes. You may also want to consider just discarding your stock and opening a new one if your remaining volume is so little that it requires special tools to get out of the bottle.

Rick A · Jun 20, 2016

Another question, are you using the same syringe to draw both parts of the developer, or do you use two separate ones? I hope you have two syringes and keep them labeled to prevent cross contamination.

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

good points, Kawaiithulhu. The originator of Obsidian Aqua also seems to recommend the pipette approach. 'Would seems to eliminate some ambiguity.

Dennis S · Jun 20, 2016

My self with Pyrocat HD or HDC I use separately marked syringes and mixing containers that are only used for this process. My self I have found I only mix a small batch 200 ml of A & B concentrates after I mixed about 500 ml and had it go south on me after about 6 mnths. I was also using Propylene Glycol which I though would last. I also have a friend who uses distilled water and had the same problems. When it works it does amazingly good negatives. Now I only use film that can be developed in Pyrocat according to DD developing chart.\

Photo was UN54 film developed 1-1-200 Pyrocat HDC

mwdake · Jun 20, 2016

Looks like you might find these things useful for drawing up your Pyrocat HD parts.

You can find them at the local drug store, they are called oral syringe adapters.
You place them on the end of your syringe then insert in to the bottle and invert the bottle to draw the fluid.
As others have said, use separate syringes and adapters for A and B, mark them A and B so you don't mix them up.

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

Separate syringes - wow. I've used the same syringe for all one-shot developers.

The adapter does look useful.

Dances & MW - I appreciate your kind help.

I'm still sniveling about those lost shots.

Dances - FUNGUS is that shot ever sweet. The clarity is wonderful.

Dennis S · Jun 20, 2016

HiHoSilver said:
Dances - FUNGUS is that shot ever sweet. The clarity is wonderful.

Canon A1 with the FL 55 f1.2 lens. One of my favorite lenses

winger · Jun 20, 2016

If you're using the same tip for both liquids, you're introducing a small amount of the first one into the second each time you put the tip into the second. Over time, this will exhaust the developer as a whole because you're mixing them and letting them sit between sessions. I would definitely use volumetric pipettes and label them carefully. 2.5 ml is too small to be guessing. (disclaimer - I'd be using a $300 volumetric pipetter with separate tips because I AM a former labrat)

HiHoSilver · Jun 20, 2016

35mm?! Ohhh. That stands with some very very tall shooters in my book.

When I search UN54, all I see is 16mm & that's sold out. Has this been a regular for you? Is there a reliable source for it?

Rick A · Jun 20, 2016

mwdake said:
Looks like you might find these things useful for drawing up your Pyrocat HD parts.

You can find them at the local drug store, they are called oral syringe adapters.
You place them on the end of your syringe then insert in to the bottle and invert the bottle to draw the fluid.
As others have said, use separate syringes and adapters for A and B, mark them A and B so you don't mix them up.

My syringes came with these.

juan · Jun 20, 2016

I have seen the B solution go bad. As a result, I compute the amount of sodium or potassium carbonate needed for a given volume of working strength developer and mix the dry chemical directly into the water. In your situation I would add 2.5g of carbonate to the 600ml water. While this method means I have to get out the scales each time I develop, I eliminate cross contamination and the less likely possibility of the B solution going bad.
Juan

mwdake · Jun 20, 2016

Rick A said:
My syringes came with these.

Yes, I think you can get them with and without syringes.
I think the last ones I bought from Walgreens included the syringe.

markbarendt · Jun 20, 2016

Search Amazon for "plastic pipette"

HiHoSilver said:
I'm still sniveling about those lost shots.

Ok, this is a pure trouble shooting question to find a way to keep you from sniveling about this in the future:
What was the specific consistent problem you were finding with the prints you were making from your FP4 negatives that you had developed in the 1:1:100 Pyrocat HD mix?

Dennis S · Jun 20, 2016

mwdake said:
Looks like you might find these things useful for drawing up your Pyrocat HD parts.

You can find them at the local drug store, they are called oral syringe adapters.
You place them on the end of your syringe then insert in to the bottle and invert the bottle to draw the fluid.
As others have said, use separate syringes and adapters for A and B, mark them A and B so you don't mix them up.

I use to do it that way until I realized I was using the sludge and precip that collects in the bottom of the concentrate.

Blank film

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency