Blacks on RC

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

I am using Fujibro variable contrast semi-matte (RC) paper in Dektol 1+2 and I am not getting real blacks.
I've enlarged Fuji Neopan 400 and HP5+ onto it, but not gotten any really deep blacks.

I usually do split grade printing and even increasing the contrast by a lot only yields dark grays.
Does anybody have experience with this paper?

Am I too picky about the blacks? Would moving to glossy be better?
Is Ilford's RC paper any better for this or should I move to fiber paper?

Thanks

Anon Ymous · Apr 13, 2016

Semi-matte paper doesn't have the deep blacks that a glossy paper has. Usual density for such a paper is about 1,4, while glossy papers have density >= 2. IMHO Ilford Pearl is a nice compromise.

LouisGR · Apr 13, 2016

I assume you're using the 2 extreme filters for your split grade printing, as I do [ie 00 and 5].

RC paper gives excellent blacks, so does Kentmere. I prefer the pearly surface for RC paper, but both manufacturers' glossy paper also work well with split grade printing.

Glossy fibre-based paper is best, especially with a bit of selenium toning. However, even without toning it is more time-consuming. It needs more development time and much more washing, and after all that, it needs flattening when it is dry. Matte FB paper, in my experience, looks flat unless you increase the contrast substantially.

Cheers

Louis
https://www.flickr.com/photos/louisgeorge2011/

John Bragg · Apr 13, 2016

Glossy will always give deeper blacks. Matte or pearl is better with subtle whites.

Oscar Carlsson · Apr 13, 2016

What's your development time, and what temperature? At 1+2 I guess 60 s should be enough but I found that 90 s was better for me & my setup, but that was for 1+3.

How old is your Dektol?

I have a RC print (Fomaspeed paper, semi-gloss) with great blacks just beside me, so it is at least possible.

Neal · Apr 13, 2016

Dear ericdan,

Something that seems to help somewhat sometimes (so don't get your hopes up) is to dry RC paper with a hair dryer rather than simply air dry.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

mooseontheloose · Apr 13, 2016

Eric,
I use Fujibro for all my RC needs and have never noticed a problem with the blacks (in fact, this paper is a bit more contrasty than others I'm used to, like Ilford). I usually use the semi-matte, although have used the glossy on occasion (I don't like that surface as much though). I've never used Dektol though, just Ilford Multigrade (although I'm off that now that it is so freaking expensive - $26 here in Japan for 1L compared to $8 in the U.S.). Maybe it's the Dektol?

If not, I think it would be worth trying other papers. For RC 8x10 paper available in Japan (just looking at Yodobashi here), the prices per sheet are as follows: Fujibro or Oriental (142 yen), Ilford (171 yen), Kentmere (134 yen). Ordering from overseas, you can get Ilford RC 8x10 paper from Silverprint (85 yen), Freestyle (89 yen), B&H (82 yen), or Fotoimpex (74 yen). Of course that doesn't include shipping or duties. That said, if you want to order from overseas then you have a lot more options available to you.

I've been happily using Fujibro over the past 6 years that I've been back in Japan, but now that Fuji has increased their prices as of April 1st, I'm debating whether it's worth to support another manufacturer that has more variety of paper, surfaces, and sizes. Fujibro paper had a 65% price increase - I was able to stock up a bit, but I'm not sure what I'll do once that goes. I always preferred other papers but Fujibro was good because it was local, cheap, and always in stock. Now that it's not so cheap (it used to be 91 yen per sheet) I may go back to my old favourites of Ilford and Foma, or maybe explore a few other options.

FWIW, quite a number of images in my gallery were printed on Fujibro paper.

Lachlan Young · Apr 13, 2016

Have you checked that your safelight is actually 'safe' for that paper?

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

Oscar Carlsson said:
What's your development time, and what temperature? At 1+2 I guess 60 s should be enough but I found that 90 s was better for me & my setup, but that was for 1+3.

How old is your Dektol?

I have a RC print (Fomaspeed paper, semi-gloss) with great blacks just beside me, so it is at least possible.

Dektol was 1+2 and about 12 hours old. I developed for 90 seconds.

removed account4 · Apr 13, 2016

hi ericdan

i sometimes rip a piece of paper and i room light ( with the rest of the box closed ! ) i
put the paper through the developer stop and fix
and look to see if it turns black.
sometimes old tired developer is problematic
sometimes if the paper is super old it takes a bit of coaxing to get it to blacken.

good luck !
john

ps. i use mat as well as pearl and glossy rc paper and get heavy blacks with all 3

RalphLambrecht · Apr 13, 2016

ericdan said:
I am using Fujibro variable contrast semi-matte (RC) paper in Dektol 1+2 and I am not getting real blacks.
I've enlarged Fuji Neopan 400 and HP5+ onto it, but not gotten any really deep blacks.

I usually do split grade printing and even increasing the contrast by a lot only yields dark grays.
Does anybody have experience with this paper?

Am I too picky about the blacks? Would moving to glossy be better?
Is Ilford's RC paper any better for this or should I move to fiber paper?

Thanks

all Ilford papers and many RC glossy papers arecapable of a Dmax of 2.1 or darker.Make sure your developer is fresh and not too diluted;selenium toning will also darken blacks

bdial · Apr 13, 2016

Is there a difference between the first few prints from that batch of developer vs the last, or have the blacks been weak for the whole time?
If they started out ok, then the developer is probably spent.
As stated, glossy paper will produce slightly deeper blacks, but solid black tone is possible on matte paper too.
If you've eliminated exposure as a cause, try a little less dilution, or extend the developing time. Cold developer could be a cause too.

MartinP · Apr 13, 2016

If you develop a test strip in daylight you will see how dark the matt paper can go. Compare that to the results in your enlargements and see if it is worse or better, then you can make an informed decision on what you do next eg. try selenium toning, try Dektol stock, try another paper-surface (as matt never looks as black as glossy paper does).

bvy · Apr 13, 2016

I use Ilford RC paper, Pearl, and find the blackest blacks elusive unless I want my shadow detail to go to mush. It seems you need a pretty perfect negative to achieve this, and I know that mine are not, since I'm shooting in all kinds of light and using Sunny 16 as my meter. I still get nice looking prints, but I know I'm a stop away from the deepest black most of the time.

mnemosyne · Apr 13, 2016

"Dark grays" as maximum density doesn't sound correct.
I agree you should use fresh developer and test paper exposed to full light to determine what is the maximum black your paper is capable of. If you have a box of the same paper in glossy variety or other paper brands to compare, all the better.
I always have a small test strip of fully exposed and processed "black" of the paper in use lying around as a reference in the area where I view my prints during printing sessions to make sure that I will not be deceived by my vision when judging test prints.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 13, 2016

It's fairly common for people to pull prints before they have completely developed. Doing so results in poor blacks. Either follow the recommended development time for the developer you are using or use the development to completion method.

Sal Santamaura · Apr 13, 2016

Two points. First, "semi-mattte" is Fuji's term for the surface Ilford refers to as "pearl." That finish is not at all inherently unable to achieve deep blacks. See the maximum density Multigrade Warmtone RC pearl reaches, for example.

Second, neither Japan Exposures listings nor any Fujifilm pages I'm able to dig up using translation programs seem to list a VC version of Fujibro. The only type I can find is fixed contrast, available in grades 2, 3 and 4. Is this VC Fujibro commonly available in Japan? If so, I'll ask Japan Exposures to get me some!

mooseontheloose · Apr 13, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
Two points. First, "semi-mattte" is Fuji's term for the surface Ilford refers to as "pearl." That finish is not at all inherently unable to achieve deep blacks. See the maximum density Multigrade Warmtone RC pearl reaches, for example.

Second, neither Japan Exposures listings nor any Fujifilm pages I'm able to dig up using translation programs seem to list a VC version of Fujibro. The only type I can find is fixed contrast, available in grades 2, 3 and 4. Is this VC Fujibro commonly available in Japan? If so, I'll ask Japan Exposures to get me some!

Sal, there are two versions of Fujibro: the fixed contrast with the code WP KM (near-matte) or WP FM (glossy), followed by the grade - 2,3,4; and the variable contrast with the codes WP AM (semi-matte) or WP FM (glossy). The fixed grades have a white and black label, the VC paper label is purple. There is no "V" sound in Japanese, as such, translation programs will turn "varigrade" in "bali great or bali grade".

gone · Apr 13, 2016

If your developer is fresh and you have good negs and still can't get the blacks that you want, I suggest switching to another paper, preferably a fiber paper. A lot of people like the convenience of VC papers, and maybe I'm more fussy about deep blacks than others (background as an etcher), but when I switched to Adox MCC 110 Glossy fb paper I no longer had to futz w/ the filters. Simply making a test strip to give me the blacks I was after also gave me excellent whites w/o filters. There is no way I could get the same look from the VC paper that I knew of.

Yeah, you have to wash them longer and they curl, but those issues can be dealt with pretty easily, and there's the satisfaction, not to mention the time and material savings, from getting the prints easily and quickly.

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
Have you checked that your safelight is actually 'safe' for that paper?

I'm using an LPL safelight with a red dome. The green one is labeled RA4, orange is traditional B&W and red variable contrast. I hope it's alright. To be honest I barely use it though. I mostly work in the dark.

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
Two points. First, "semi-mattte" is Fuji's term for the surface Ilford refers to as "pearl." That finish is not at all inherently unable to achieve deep blacks. See the maximum density Multigrade Warmtone RC pearl reaches, for example.

Second, neither Japan Exposures listings nor any Fujifilm pages I'm able to dig up using translation programs seem to list a VC version of Fujibro. The only type I can find is fixed contrast, available in grades 2, 3 and 4. Is this VC Fujibro commonly available in Japan? If so, I'll ask Japan Exposures to get me some!

FujiBro is available in every camera store here in Tokyo.

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

mnemosyne said:
"Dark grays" as maximum density doesn't sound correct.
I agree you should use fresh developer and test paper exposed to full light to determine what is the maximum black your paper is capable of. If you have a box of the same paper in glossy variety or other paper brands to compare, all the better.
I always have a small test strip of fully exposed and processed "black" of the paper in use lying around as a reference in the area where I view my prints during printing sessions to make sure that I will not be deceived by my vision when judging test prints.

Great idea. Thanks!

ericdan · Apr 13, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
Eric,
I use Fujibro for all my RC needs and have never noticed a problem with the blacks (in fact, this paper is a bit more contrasty than others I'm used to, like Ilford). I usually use the semi-matte, although have used the glossy on occasion (I don't like that surface as much though). I've never used Dektol though, just Ilford Multigrade (although I'm off that now that it is so freaking expensive - $26 here in Japan for 1L compared to $8 in the U.S.). Maybe it's the Dektol?

If not, I think it would be worth trying other papers. For RC 8x10 paper available in Japan (just looking at Yodobashi here), the prices per sheet are as follows: Fujibro or Oriental (142 yen), Ilford (171 yen), Kentmere (134 yen). Ordering from overseas, you can get Ilford RC 8x10 paper from Silverprint (85 yen), Freestyle (89 yen), B&H (82 yen), or Fotoimpex (74 yen). Of course that doesn't include shipping or duties. That said, if you want to order from overseas then you have a lot more options available to you.

I've been happily using Fujibro over the past 6 years that I've been back in Japan, but now that Fuji has increased their prices as of April 1st, I'm debating whether it's worth to support another manufacturer that has more variety of paper, surfaces, and sizes. Fujibro paper had a 65% price increase - I was able to stock up a bit, but I'm not sure what I'll do once that goes. I always preferred other papers but Fujibro was good because it was local, cheap, and always in stock. Now that it's not so cheap (it used to be 91 yen per sheet) I may go back to my old favourites of Ilford and Foma, or maybe explore a few other options.

FWIW, quite a number of images in my gallery were printed on Fujibro paper.

Thanks a lot!
I looked at prices online and Adox paper from silversalt.jp and Ilford paper imported from the US are about the same. FujiBro is still the cheapest and commonly available paper here. I can literally pick up a pack on my way home from work.
I'll give it another try before ordering something from abroad. Got lots of tips in this thread after all. Thanks again!

bence8810 · Apr 14, 2016

Eric, I use the Fuji AM paper and it's perfectly black for me.
I don't use Dektol though, I go with the Chugai line and develop in "My Developer" 1:9

Good luck!
Ben

Sal Santamaura · Apr 14, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
Sal, there are two versions of Fujibro: the fixed contrast with the code WP KM (near-matte) or WP FM (glossy), followed by the grade - 2,3,4; and the variable contrast with the codes WP AM (semi-matte) or WP FM (glossy). The fixed grades have a white and black label, the VC paper label is purple. There is no "V" sound in Japanese, as such, translation programs will turn "varigrade" in "bali great or bali grade".
View attachment 154516

Thanks Rachelle. In your estimation, is the WP AM equivalent in surface texture/sheen to Ilford's Pearl? If so, I'd really like to try some Fujibro semi-matte.

Blacks on RC

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