Black & White Reversal and Density

pkr1979 · Aug 27, 2024

Hi all,

Maybe I'm thinking backwards here, but this puzzled me. I developed Ferrania Orto (@25) for 15 and 18 minutes in Ilford PQ (no hypo), and Iron Out as second developer (30 grams for 300ml for one film). The one developed for 18 minutes looks slightly denser than the one developed for 15. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The amount of dithionite my vary in those 30 grams, so maybe this affects results.

Cheers
Peter

koraks · Aug 27, 2024

B&W reversal dmax

I reversed Foma Ortho this way: 1st dev: Fomadon LQR 1+10 distilled water (no silver solvent added) 12 minutes Wash Bleach: Potassium Permanganate (2g/L) mixed 1/1 with Sodium Bisulfate (50g/L) 5 minutes Wash Clearing: Potassium Metabisulfite (25g/L) 2 minutes Wash Fogging under light...

www.photrio.com

Coincidentally, this came up quite recently. Seems to be related, if not pretty much the same.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 27, 2024

pkr1979 said:
Hi all,

Maybe I'm thinking backwards here, but this puzzled me. I developed Ferrania Orto (@25) for 15 and 18 minutes in Ilford PQ (no hypo), and Iron Out as second developer (30 grams for 300ml for one film). The one developed for 18 minutes looks slightly denser than the one developed for 15. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The amount of dithionite my vary in those 30 grams, so maybe this affects results.

Cheers
Peter

Try to not use dithionite. Use light re-exposure instead and please report back your findings.

pkr1979 · Aug 30, 2024

Worse. However - this is the second time Ive used light (Ive used mostly stannous chloride). I tried doing it according to the Adox kit. The results on this roll are very, very uneven. From appearing underexposed to high, high contrast. Also, since Im not using any hypo I used the same developer as the second one... which might have been a mistake as it was PQ at 1:5 instead of 1:9. Either way, Im going back to dithionite and Ill try increasing the amount of Iron Out.

pkr1979 · Aug 30, 2024

Very clear highlights (on some).

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 30, 2024

pkr1979 said:
Very clear highlights (on some).

When you use light re-exposure you have to recalibrate the first developer step.

MCB18 · Aug 30, 2024

For those familiar with black and white reversal, how should I test the bleach to make sure it’s still good? I tried just doing a clip test with some film that has been exposed a while in the light, but the bleach did not clear the film and the remaining silver turned around as black as it started.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 30, 2024

MCB18 said:
For those familiar with black and white reversal, how should I test the bleach to make sure it’s still good? I tried just doing a clip test with some film that has been exposed a while in the light, but the bleach did not clear the film and the remaining silver turned around as black as it started.

You should take a film strip, expose to light, develop, bleach and a brief clearing bath.
The strip should come out perfectly clear. if it doesn't the bleach and the developer are shot.
Can you post a pic of your bleach?

MCB18 · Aug 30, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
You should take a film strip, expose to light, develop, bleach and a brief clearing bath.
The strip should come out perfectly clear. if it doesn't the bleach and the developer are shot.
Can you post a pic of your bleach?

I use a 2 step bleach, CuSO4+NaCl, and the Ammonia. Here’s after the test (from top to bottom: dev, bleach A, bleach B)

And the film after getting developed and bleached:

I think maybe I just need to mix up more bleach.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 30, 2024

I can't help you because this is not a proper b&w reversal process...

MCB18 · Aug 30, 2024

This is a B&W reversal process. Several people on this fourum have had success with it.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 30, 2024

MCB18 said:
This is a B&W reversal process. Several people on this fourum have had success with it.

That this is a b&w reversal process is without any doubt. But it's not a proper reversal process...

Ivo Stunga · Aug 31, 2024

If your process is anything like traditional reversal - say Ilford Reversal, then:

1:

pkr1979 said:
tried doing it according to the Adox kit. The results on this roll are very, very uneven

- did you expose outside the reel?
- for how long did you reexpose and to what light source?
- what was your bleach routine? In traditional reversal such uneven results and general weirdness comes often from poor bleaching stage. Bleach must be of sufficient strength and agitated constantly for enough time.

2:

pkr1979 said:
Im not using any hypo I used the same developer as the second one... which might have been a mistake as it was PQ at 1:5 instead of 1:9

I've done numerous tests with 1st dev + hypo reused for 2nd stage with no changes in density and contrast. I'd attribute this to the unevenness instead: problem in 1st dev and/or bleach.

Have you tried traditional process where the understanding is more complete?

MCB18 · Aug 31, 2024

To be clear, I am using a 2 step regal bleach, making the developed silver turn into AgCl and hoping it dissolves in ammonia.

What I am doing to test bleach is developing the film fully in the first developer after it has been exposed to room light. Then,I am bleaching in copper sulphate, and attempting to remove any rehalogenated salts with ammonia, but it is not clearing. I know they are being rehalogenated as when I put the same film into fixer it clears almost immediately.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 31, 2024

MCB18 said:
To be clear, I am using a 2 step regal bleach, making the developed silver turn into AgCl and hoping it dissolves in ammonia.

What I am doing to test bleach is developing the film fully in the first developer after it has been exposed to room light. Then,I am bleaching in copper sulphate, and attempting to remove any rehalogenated salts with ammonia, but it is not clearing. I know they are being rehalogenated as when I put the same film into fixer it clears almost immediately.

Can I ask you why are you going this route instead of the tried and true 100 years old proper reversal process?

MCB18 · Aug 31, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
Can I ask you why are you going this route instead of the tried and true 100 years old proper reversal process?

Because I don’t feel like getting cancer, acute chromium toxicity, or acid burns.

DeletedAcct1 · Aug 31, 2024

MCB18 said:
Because I don’t feel like getting cancer, acute chromium toxicity, or acid burns.

I can reassure you that by using permanganate bleach you will not get any cancer whatsoever and by using bisulfate instead of sulfuric acid you will not get acid burns.
It's up to you.

pkr1979 · Sep 9, 2024

Ivo Stunga said:
If your process is anything like traditional reversal - say Ilford Reversal, then:

1:

- did you expose outside the reel?
- for how long did you reexpose and to what light source?
- what was your bleach routine? In traditional reversal such uneven results and general weirdness comes often from poor bleaching stage. Bleach must be of sufficient strength and agitated constantly for enough time.

2:

I've done numerous tests with 1st dev + hypo reused for 2nd stage with no changes in density and contrast. I'd attribute this to the unevenness instead: problem in 1st dev and/or bleach.

Have you tried traditional process where the understanding is more complete?

Sorry for not responding. It seems like the alerts disappeared. Anyway, if its not the dev it has to be the reexposure. The bleach works fine (tested with chemical reexposure). The light source is a 100 watt equivalent bulb for a couple of mins on each side, turning the reel. The film is not removed from it.

Ivo Stunga · Sep 10, 2024

Seems plausible - maybe 12 minutes could work, exposing perpendicularly 2 min per side, then changing side

DeletedAcct1 · Sep 15, 2024

pkr1979 said:
Worse. However - this is the second time Ive used light (Ive used mostly stannous chloride). I tried doing it according to the Adox kit. The results on this roll are very, very uneven. From appearing underexposed to high, high contrast. Also, since Im not using any hypo I used the same developer as the second one... which might have been a mistake as it was PQ at 1:5 instead of 1:9. Either way, Im going back to dithionite and Ill try increasing the amount of Iron Out.

To lenghten the first developing time to gain clear highlights is not always a good idea. Complex reactions take place during the first development, including the redeposition of filamentous silver upon the image being formed, which yields high contrast, while the fog increases which lowers the contrast.
The best way to have clear highlight is to use a silver halide solvent, always. Don't assume that in the Foma kit (or in the Adox kit) the fist developer doesn't have some sort of silver halide solvent just from the fact that it is being reused as the second developer.

pkr1979 · Sep 16, 2024

Thanks @Alessandro Serrao - I tried a first developer dilution just recently at 1+3 instead of the recommended 1+5 (PQ) and the difference is hard to see. I have a bottle of thiocyanate solution so I'm probably testing with that instead.

DeletedAcct1 · Sep 16, 2024

pkr1979 said:
Thanks @Alessandro Serrao - I tried a first developer dilution just recently at 1+3 instead of the recommended 1+5 (PQ) and the difference is hard to see. I have a bottle of thiocyanate solution so I'm probably testing with that instead.

Foma suggest to use his Fomadon LQR at 1+10 diluition, so I think also Ilford Pq Universal is feasible at lower ratios (eg. 1+10). This to say that anything higher that 1+5 (1+4 etc...) is wasteful imho.

1957ExaktaVarexIIa · Sep 18, 2024

MCB18 said:
For those familiar with black and white reversal, how should I test the bleach to make sure it’s still good?

I use to use KMnO4 with H2SO4 as a bleach bath. It actually works.
To make sure it works, I use to open the tank after bleaching to have a look at the film.

Normally the film should be bright and yellow (sorry for my English). Then I continue the process.
If there are still any dark brown spots or areas obviously the bleach bath didn't work any more. But to correct it, it's easy to continue bleaching for 2 or 3 minutes .
To continue, mostly I set up a new bleach bath.
But once I experimented by just adding a little bit of H2SO4 to the old bleach bath and that did work also (to develop a single film).

Generally I have got very good results by using a process that a guy named Friedemann Wachsmuth has set up 14 years ago . He has described it in here - please make sure to read all the comments also. (Sorry that it's in German but maybe deepl might help .)

Michael

River Mantis · Nov 28, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
Foma suggest to use his Fomadon LQR at 1+10 diluition

It's a BS, it doesn't work. I have no idea why did they mention LQR. 10 min as in the data sheet is away too little, it leads a terribly uderdeveloped result. LQR can't even be counted as a high contrast developer, too little of developing agents, too weak buffering. It's just a little less compensating than Foma's LQN. The developer coming with a kit has an entirely different composition.

DeletedAcct1 · Dec 7, 2024

River Mantis said:
It's a BS, it doesn't work. I have no idea why did they mention LQR. 10 min as in the data sheet is away too little, it leads a terribly uderdeveloped result. LQR can't even be counted as a high contrast developer, too little of developing agents, too weak buffering. It's just a little less compensating than Foma's LQN. The developer coming with a kit has an entirely different composition.

Never used LQR as first developer though since I never found any reason to.
The Foma reversal kit is excellent for me.

Black & White Reversal and Density

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