"Black Sun" technique?

darinb

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Bill Burk

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Darin did you want to do this in 35mm or LF? I've got a bulk 100' roll of PanF Plus lying around. Could figure out the solarization curve if you need.
 
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Lachlan Young

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Most films today are adjusted to minimise the solarization effect - however Pan-F has some eccentricities & this may be one of them.
 

Donald Qualls

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The specific effect of Ansel's "Black Sun" is identical to the way Harman Direct Positive photo paper works -- except theirs is very well controlled. There have also been direct positive cine copy films (typical ISO speed from <1 to 6 or so) sold in 35mm on occasion; Kodak used to make them, wouldn't surprise me if ORWO (or Inoviscoat, which I understand handles their actual coating) has or does as well.

For direct positive imaging, the entire emulsion receives a carefully calibrated exposure to push it exactly to the peak of the characteristic curve, or more likely to a precisely determined point past (so that the slope of density reduction becomes useful). For effects like "Black Sun" it's a lot simpler, in some ways; you need a film that actually has a reversed section of the H&D curve, and then you need to set up your exposure so some extreme highlights get enough light to push far past that point (so you wind up with clear or nearly clear film in that region) without burning out the rest of the negative.

The complication is that a number of modern film stocks have been adjusted to make them "easier to use" -- the more commonly noted effect of these adjustments has been that the range of Zone expansions and contractions is much less broad; instead of N-3 to N+7, with a modern film like T-Max you're limited to N-1 to N+3 or so. A side effect of this "baked in" contrast range is that the reversal portion of the H&D curve is just gone; there's no amount of exposure you can give, short of literally burning a hole in the film, that will give that reversal effect. So, you need to know what films will do the job you want, and in general, it's going to be the oldest technology films -- Fomapan probably can, Ilford's cubic grain stocks (Pan F, FP4+, and HP5+) are reported to work this way, and it's possible Tri-X does. Double-X Negative cine stock probably does (this film is almost unchanged since it came out in 1959), and there are very likely some other stocks produced by Inoviscoat for Maco/Rollei or ORWO, or by Tasma that will work this way; Lucky? Who knows. Beyond that sort of "this is an old-tech film, so it ought to work" you're likely on your own to establish how much exposure you need to get past the peak, since published H&D curves almost never go much past the shoulder, and the peak is usually far past that exposure level (in normal use, anything beyond the shoulder is a "blocked highlight" and is to be avoided).

Ansel is on record as saying the effect was more or less accidental -- the composition he wanted couldn't avoid the sun in frame, so he took what he could get in that respect to get the rest of the photo he wanted.
 

Lachlan Young

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Direct positive materials (at least post WWII) use a much more complex & controllable method of manufacture, usually involving core-shell emulsions, controlled chemical fogging of the core in manufacture & the incorporation of a nucleating agent in the emulsion. Harman DPP is on the record as using a nucleating agent.

Most modern emulsions incorporate addenda to prevent the solarization effects you describe - Pan-F seems to lack some components that may relate to latent image lifespan, and it is plausible that those also relate to control of solarization effects too. The whole idea of 'expansion' as popularly written is usually predicated on several problems, largely centred around a lack of real sensitometric knowledge and/ or good quality testing - not least of which is the seeming lack of knowledge of the use of more active developers to readily get higher contrasts - PQ Universal for example - and multicontrast papers.
 

DREW WILEY

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As I recall, that AA shot happened with Super-XX. I could look it up in the book Examples if necessary. But it wouldn't help anyone trying to do it today. I too accidentally got a similar result when I discovered one last sheet of expired 8x10 Acros film that been lying in a paper safe for over 20 yrs. I took a "what the heck" shot with it, which, after a lot of headache printing, came out stunning, but completely unlike the same kind of film would have delivered if it was fresh.
 

Donald Qualls

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Sure... I just bought me a roll of Super-XX

Is it actually Super XX, or is it Double X Negative cine film? I didn't look that closely at your image in the other thread -- just assumed it was the cine stock. Pretty sure Super XX has been out of production since before Double-X Negative came out.
 

DREW WILEY

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I think the last extant 120 roll of real Super-XX was pried out of a nostril hole of a Triceratops skull sometime in the last century. Anyway, AA was used it in 8x10 sheets, which looked like birdshot in a 16x20 print, rather than buckshot! But Super-XX was a remarkable film in terms of development options.
 
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