black spots with rodinal

jns · Jul 23, 2021

I am new to analog photography but recently got started when i learned about the wonders of caffenol. I had great fun and got curious on rodinal..
but when i stand develop in rodinal i sometimes get these black spots on my pictures.
What is it at what to do about it..

don't mind the bad photo, it was just a good example at the problem.

my proces:
film: fomapan 400

rodinal 100:1 (450:4.5ml) - water temp is about 20c
about 1 min agitation with the stick-thing
stand for 70 min
waterrinse 1 min
fix for 4 min
waterrinse for 5 min -add adoflo and let sit for a minute
hang dry
scan

pentaxuser · Jul 23, 2021

Well for what is termed full stand development you seem to have done everything right but I'd be tempted to try semi stand i.e. more frequent agitation such as one inversion or stick twizzle at the 30 mins mark or even a twizzle every 20 mins. Some report no problems with full stand but many do experience problems which semi-stand as I have described does seem to eliminate

However as a newcomer it might be easier just to use 1+25 or 1+50 and follow the normal Rodinal agitation for the times Rodinal lists for your particular film

Let us know what you decide and then how the next film development goes

Thanks

pentaxuser

Steve York · Jul 23, 2021

How old is your fixer? I got these black dots when my fixer got old and used up. I also got black dots when I used Cinestill developer.

Are you using bottled distilled water or tap?

Is it 35mm or medium format? My wife has had a bad stretch with MF film, both Fomapan and Ilord. Scratches on the Foma and white dot pattern on the Ilford.

As mentioned above, semi-stand is probably safer. I always get bromide streaks with pure stand.

This is the fun (and frustration) of film. Got to figure it out yourself, but only change one variable at a time. Try your process with a different film and if you still get the dots, then you know it's not the film, ect. Even cut the film in half in the changing bag so that you don't "sacrifice" and entire roll. Try it with distilled water, fresh fixer, ect., but make only one change at a time. You'll figure it out. Let us know.

jns · Jul 23, 2021

I have developed 30-40 rolls in caffenol.. i ended up with stand development and a tweaked caffenol formula wich has yielded good results with 35mm fomapan 400. But on my journey i have encountered lots of artistic failures ;-)
what i like about rodinal, is that the mixing is so fast and easy.. caffenol takes some time to mix.

i use tap water and 35mm, i like the look of fomapan and i like some of the "failures" with homedeveloped B/W -i find it aestetically pleasing and the reason for not just shooting digital. There is better at more expensive film than the fomapan, but i would prefere to keep using this.
my fixer is not new but it have never given dark spots with caffenol.. -but i will mix up a new solution.
I spool my own cartridges with fomapan, so i could spool up som 5-10 frame rolls for testing purposes.

is it strange that dark-spots is not a "normal" failure? -i have not found other references to this problem on the world wide interwebs..
the spots are not on all frames, they seemes to "like" overexposed areas in the sky -but i could also be that they are harder to se in darker areas.

jns · Jul 23, 2021

steve - can you share an example of some pictures with black dots as a resoult of overused fixer?

jns · Jul 24, 2021

i have done one small but succesful test with a freshly mixed fixer -it could be that some leftovers from caffenol acting up. the old fixer had been used for both..
but i will have to test more to be certain -but now you at updated ;-)

thank you for youre advice so far! this is an awesome forum

Foto Ludens · Jul 24, 2021

jns said:
it could be that some leftovers from caffenol acting up. the old fixer had been used for both..

If you are using a water stop (rather than an acid stop) between developer and fixer, you may want to try adding a couple of water changes (a full "ilford wash") to wash out any traces of developer before adding the fixer, regardless of which developer you use. This might help extend the life of the fixer.

Lachlan Young · Jul 24, 2021

Stand development is a bad idea. Regular agitation patterns and a small amount of basic applied process control will get better overall end results. The manufacturers don't recommend low/ no agitation for very good reasons - and unlike random claims on the internet, they investigated the chemical physics of development extremely thoroughly. Better to expend effort on imagemaking rather than ineffective fiddling with developers.

jns · Jul 24, 2021

I may need to pay more attention to my stop wash!

Lachlan Young said:
Better to expend effort on imagemaking rather than ineffective fiddling with developers.

For most people this is the right advice! -but i like a bit of artsy noise and analog lo-fi lomostyle in my pictures.. but the black dots are just ugly.
But i see your point

Foto Ludens · Jul 24, 2021

Hey, fiddling with different films and developers can be quite fun. There's a lot to be said for getting to know a particular film and developer combination well, but there's nothing wrong with shooting different stuff just for the hell of it.

jns · Jul 24, 2021

Hmm.. did some more testing. I shot a roll outside in the sunshine and developed the film i rodinal -i upped the stopwash as suggested and the fixer was almost newly mixed.
still 1:100, agitate 30 turns the first minut, stand for 60min, stopwash, fix, hang dry and scan.
most pics turned out great -development wise that is ;-) but it seemes like the dark dots appears in overexposed pictures.. i took some test shots at the sky, and that provoked the problem somehow.
same dots as before... :-/

jns · Jul 31, 2021

I think i have solved my problem.. i have put together a device to take care of agitation.

This picture is developed in 1:50 Rodinal, 30 sec agitation followed by 10 sec every min for the duration of 11 min. -fomapan 400 at box speed.
The pig is obvious a cutie but besides that -how would you rate this development?

John Bragg · Jul 31, 2021

The last photo looks great. Perhaps the dark spots were air bubbles on film surface. Best practice is to bump the tank on a hard surface after filling to dislodge such bubbles. I forgot to do this once in 35 years just the other day, and lo and behold, had a similar problem.

gone · Jul 31, 2021

It's hard to say too much about your piggie pic (he/she is sure well fed) because it's an online scan, and that makes it very difficult to know what the actual neg looks like.

The development looks clean though, so it looks like you fixed your problem. You might consider using normal tank development and agitation though, because your shot above looks nothing like what I get from Fomapan 400 w/ F76+ and developers like it.

My experiment w/ Rodinal at 1:50 and developed in a traditional developing tank didn't look very good, so your stand development didn't exhibit the grain issue I was warned would be there (but like you, I wanted to try it, just to see for myself).

jns · Jul 31, 2021

Thanks!
I did bump the tank but it could still be airbubbles.. -the new agitation pattern seemes to fix the problem thou.

if i want i bit more black in my pictures but not more grain -should i amp up the initially agitation from 30 sec to 60 sec? -or do something else?
it could also be that it's ok as is, the picture was taken a day with an overcast sky so dull contrast may be a result of motive and lightning.
i am too new in this to tell.. ;-)

jns · Jul 31, 2021

@momus
do you get better results with fomapan400?
I know that the scanning part has impact. I just scan with standard Epson software with no "unsharp mask" and do no postprocessing.

gone · Jul 31, 2021

Try this: shoot the film at 250 ISO, use a Y fltr if appropriate, and develop the roll in F76+ at 1:9 (or 1:8) at 70 degrees for 7 minutes and 40 seconds. Give it 30 seconds initial agitation, 1 inversion every 30 seconds (or two inversions every 60 seconds), and no agitation the last minute. You can get this w/ that combination. The tonality and grain are very nice.

jns · Jul 31, 2021

Wow! that looks great!!

When is it appropriate to use a yellow filter? is there a rule to this?

I live in Denmark at i do not think that i can get my hands on any F76+ -would it be anything like Kodak D76?
for now i will stay with rodinal.. but i might try something else next time i have to buy.

jns · Aug 8, 2021

I think that i have found a solution to my problem.. the black spots are gone and i still use the standdevelopment method -the solution that worked for me, was maybe surprisingly not more agitation.. but way less!

cold tap water -just cold..
about 1:100 rodinal -not really precise, but not way off either
pour it slowly in the tank followed by only three slow invertions (!!)
a few taps on hard surface - stand for about 60 min
stop, fix, rinse and a few drops of adoflo
i also got a squeegee and its perfekt when using tapwater
hang dry and scan

besides for the squeegee doing way more good than harm, i have not seen scratches of any kind -the real different here is the agitation. Only three slow invertions seemes to fix problems with microbubbles.

i found the method on this forum in an old thread
Rodinal Stand Processing and Contrast Adjustments? | Photrio.com Photography Forums
from the user graywolf
it goes against the meta -but it does the trick.

thanks to all for helping out and sharing thoughts and tips!

/JNS

black spots with rodinal

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