black photo paper instead of white

removed account4 · Sep 7, 2010

hi

does anyone know of a company
that makes/made black photo paper instead of white ?

i don't mean the emulsion being black, but behind the emulsion ...
( like a tintype or ambrotype is on a black background)

thanks !

john

phaedrus · Sep 7, 2010

I'm trying to think of possible uses for that and can't imagine them. What are you up to? ;-)
If it's for the alt processes mentioned, why not use them themselves?

removed account4 · Sep 7, 2010

i'd like to use the alternative processes
mentioned, but don't really want to deal with
the chemistry needed.
so i am looking for a way to make another sort
of "direct positive" ...

richard ide · Sep 7, 2010

Do you want a black image on black?

Mike Crawford · Sep 8, 2010

The lab I used to work for used Agfa PMT (Photo Mechanical Transfer) paper to make pure line positives on paper from artwork. The thin RC negative paper was black and was exposed using a process camera. This was then sandwiched emulsion to emulsion with a receiving paper and put through a simple machine with a monobath developer which put the two wet papers through rollers. They were peeled apart and the receiving paper would then have the positive image printed on it. As I remember, the black paper would show the negative, similar to how a Polaroid backing negative would appear. (Welcome to be corrected or more detail given about the process; this is only what I remember.) This was in the 80s and we never used this process for creative uses, though other films and papers in the Agfa graphic range worked well for lith and high contrast effects. As these materials were primarily for preparing artwork for reproduction, they fell out of use around this time as digital had revolutionised the printing industry long before it got hold of photography.

Marco B · Sep 8, 2010

jnanian said:
i'd like to use the alternative processes
mentioned, but don't really want to deal with
the chemistry needed.
so i am looking for a way to make another sort
of "direct positive" ...

Why not coat some black paper with one of the available commercial liquid emulsions? (and if you ever desire to try making you're own silveremulsion, there are enough people here that will be willing to help you out). It is not as difficult as it may seem, and it doesn't need any potentially harmful chemistry, like dichromate.

I have had some good experiences with Maco Black Magic VC, but there are other options like Liquid Light etc.

Well, and in terms of alternative process there is cyanotype of course, as one of the least cumbersome and least toxic options.

Ray Rogers · Sep 8, 2010

jnanian said:
i'd like to use the alternative processes
mentioned, but don't really want to deal with
the chemistry needed.
so i am looking for a way to make another sort
of "direct positive" ...

Interesting... I sometimes use this technique for a specific & unique reason.
I think I understand what you have in mind... but I wonder, it it necessary to specify "photo" paper? It sounds like you don't need "photo" paper at all.

Does your process require a silver halide emulsion?

On second reading, if chemistry means alt process non Ag, then I see where you might mean you want a black trad. photo paper.

Kentmere used to make colored papers, but no black I am afraid.

Ray Rogers · Sep 8, 2010

Another Challenging Idea :devil: is to try to dye regular photo paper...
or recoat the emulsion onto a black paper.... This (on white paper) has been done successfully by conservationists etc...

Lots of trouble... but skill building!

AgX · Sep 8, 2010

John, you won't need black paper (paper base that is) at all.

Just dye the emulsion, after your special processing.

Akki14 · Sep 8, 2010

cyanotype on black paper wouldn't really show up... cyanotype on red paper makes a sort of black image on red but you can't make it stand out more.

Possibly gum prints using gouache (opaque watercolours)?

John, I've already mentioned the physautotypes to you but i don't know if that's too "toxic" or not... you could paint the back of the glass black or possibly use black glass for that but then you still have the positive to positive issue and long exposure times.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 8, 2010

Both tintypes and ambrotypes are NOT direct positive images in the strict sense. They are really underexposed negative images coated or mounted over a black background. Since the background is much darker than the image silver in the emulsion, the image appears positive to the viewer.

You can make a real ambrotype by using collodion on a glass plate and sandwiching that with velvet, but, since you don't seem to want to go the alt processes route you could make a "fake ambrotype" by sandwiching a conventional negative with some black backing material. Even black construction paper, which is not really very black, will work for demonstration purposes, but velvet, etc. might be better for a fake ambrotype in conjunction with a glass overlay. You will likely need to tweak exposure and maybe even play with different films to get the effect you want.

Have fun,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

Marco B · Sep 8, 2010

AgX said:
John, you won't need black paper (paper base that is) at all.

Just dye the emulsion, after your special processing.

Doremus Scudder said:
Both tintypes and ambrotypes are NOT direct positive images in the strict sense. They are really underexposed negative images coated or mounted over a black background. Since the background is much darker than the image silver in the emulsion, the image appears positive to the viewer.

This is probably why AgX's idea is not going to work in this specific case. Dying the emulsion black is not the same as having a black backing paper or other kind of black painted (metal) surface put against an emulsion layer...

Steve Smith · Sep 8, 2010

I am wondering if it would be possible to dye a thin fibre based paper from the back without messing up the emulsion on the front. Perhaps a coating of protective varnish on the front then soak in some dye (after image processing obviously).

What is really needed for this is a sort of semi resin coated paper. i.e. a resin layer between the emulsion and the paper but no resin on the back. possibly peeling apart a thick RC paper would provide this.

Steve.

AgX · Sep 8, 2010

Steve Smith said:
I am wondering if it would be possible to dye a thin fibre based paper from the back without messing up the emulsion on the front.

RC paper can't be dyed from its back, and standard `fibre based´ will have a baryta coating that will shield the dyed paper base.

Steve Smith · Sep 8, 2010

AgX said:
RC paper can't be dyed from its back, and standard `fibre based´ will have a baryta coating that will shield the dyed paper base.

That's why I edited my post with a comment about peeling some paper apart!

I wasn't sure about how opaque the baryta would be. Perhaps this would take up some dye as well. There's only one way to find out - try it!

Steve.

AgX · Sep 8, 2010

Perhaps John could reveal what chemical process he got in mind...

removed account4 · Sep 8, 2010

wow, thanks for all the responses !

i was thinking of doing the equivalent of
gelatin tintypes / ambrotypes but
on paper, instead of metal + glass.
... under expose a (black backed) paper print,
and somehow blix-back the dark tones
so they look lighter ---

i'll keep all the suggestions in mind !

john

ian the framer · Sep 8, 2010

What about if you buy some decent black paper and coat it with a liquid emulsion?

Photo Engineer · Sep 8, 2010

There was a supplier that coated paper emulsions on several colored paper stocks. A sampler of all colors was available with 2 sheets of each color. IDK the colors nor do I know the company now, as it has been at least 10 years or so. IDK if they still do it either, but a search might turn up something.

PE

Ray Rogers · Sep 8, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
A sampler of all colors was available with 2 sheets of each color. IDK the colors nor do I know the company now, as it has been at least 10 years or so. IDK if they still do it either, but a search might turn up something.

PE

I think that would be Kentmere... Ian mentioned another company, German I think, but without more to go on I suspect it was just repackaged Kentmere.
Luminos might have done the same....

Ray Rogers · Sep 8, 2010

jnanian said:
wow, thanks for all the responses !

i was thinking of doing the equivalent of
gelatin tintypes / ambrotypes but
on paper, instead of metal + glass.
... under expose a (black backed) paper print,
and somehow blix-back the dark tones
so they look lighter ---

i'll keep all the suggestions in mind !

john

John,
You might hunt up some old, single weight azo or "document" paper that is not baryta coated...

I haven't done those two processes... can they really be done with normal B/W chemistry? Or do they really need some sort of "lightening" ?

I always check out at least a few images while they are washing... held a certain way it is very easy to get a positive image from regular negs, so it should be possible... I suspect they might be slightly hard to view though.

PM me if you want to go deeper...

richard ide · Sep 8, 2010

AFAIK the paper was French made but discontinued in the early 90's. I used to use a lot of it. A bleach etch solution removed the emulsion and base coat with a high contrast image; giving white on colour. They also made gold and silver base.

Ray Rogers · Sep 8, 2010

I would like more info on this French paper...
was the etch part of the official process
or was that just how you used it yourself?

Marco B · Sep 8, 2010

richard ide said:
AFAIK the paper was French made but discontinued in the early 90's. I used to use a lot of it. A bleach etch solution removed the emulsion and base coat with a high contrast image; giving white on colour. They also made gold and silver base.

Are you possibly referring to the "Atelier Fresson" and the dichromate based colored emulsion paper they make for in-house purposes and printing jobs:

http://www.atelier-fresson.com/history.htm

"Photographic prints made on charcoal paper made without transfer" is it called in the 1899 description...

You seem to still be able to order a print from them, look at the current prices list in Euros... but not the paper.

Marco

Photo Engineer · Sep 8, 2010

The paper I saw was a normal emulsion coated on a colored paper stock. I saw samples of a red and blue, with black photographic images on them. There were other colors. It was no special process or emulsion.

PE

black photo paper instead of white

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