Black Paint Leicas

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

I have been following them for more than a decade now.

Okay, the general rule goes like this:

-Original BP Leica MP is the most expensive due to its extreme rarity.
Twice as expensive as BP M3.

-Original BP M3, twice as expensive as original M2. Mostly due to the fact that there are half less.

-Original BP M2, double the price of BP M4, mostly due to the fact that there half less than M4 BP cameras.
Yes, the rare button rewind model will cost close to M3 BP level.

- Original BP M4 historically followed the Leica new MP prices.

Now it seems that Leica M4 BP prices have gone through the roof, doubling the MP “new”. This fact alone, that it is now unlinked from the MP “new” prices, indicates that the holy trinity of Leicas (M3, M2 and M4) will only go up to insane levels.

The general tendency of the above should stay stable through time, with condition playing a role as well.

Original Leica BP are no joke. By original, I mean the MP original, M3, M2 and M4. They are historical pieces that will always go up in value and cannot be made ever again. What’s there is there and that’s it. All that can happen is their numbers going down, either by uncaring/ignorant owners (think old thrashed barnyards in remote places, junked, destroyed). This is why, even the well used, brassed, bumped and warped samples are prized: they are limited, never to be duplicated. Ever.

Fascinating, n’est-ce-pas?

faberryman · Oct 31, 2021

Yes, black paint Leicas cost significantly more. However, black paint does not improve your photographs. Black paint Leicas do seem to be a good investment though. Just depends on how you want to spend your money. The subject does not seem all that fascinating to me.

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

faberryman said:
Yes, black paint Leicas cost significantly more. However, black paint does not improve your photographs. Black paint Leicas do seem to be a good investment though. Just depends on how you want to spend your money. The subject does not seem all that fascinating to me.

That’s because you are not fascinated by the subject.

This is not related to photography: the act of. But rather to a fascination with nice objects. Like a fine old porsche or a rare Rolex, or a... just a love for beautiful objects that have crafted their whole industries and beyond.
A fabergé egg, should it be sold by its weight in gold? There’s always a poor dude somewhere on the planet to insinuate that it should cost no more than 200$, after all has been said and done.

Perhaps the most fascinating of all is that everyone is Right, and Wrong!

faberryman · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
That’s because you are not fascinated by the subject.

This is not related to photography: the act of. But rather to a fascination with nice objects. Like a fine old porsche or a rare Rolex, or a... just a love for beautiful objects that have crafted their whole industries and beyond.
A fabergé egg, should it be sold by its weight in gold? There’s always a poor dude somewhere on the planet to insinuate that it should cost no more than 200$, after all has been said and done.

Perhaps the most fascinating of all is that everyone is Right, and Wrong!

I am not fascinated by people liking nice things and being willing to pay more for them. It is common knowledge. What I am fascinated by is all of the rationalization people engage in to justify their purchases. It is pretty hilarious. I laugh at myself sometimes. I know I had some rationalizations when I bought my black Olympus OM-1 about fifty years ago. It was more expensive than the silver version, but boy was it worth it.

Huss · Oct 31, 2021

I am always entertained by those not fascinated by a subject but yet cannot look away and provide running commentary to it, this embroiling themselves in something they apparently have no interest in.

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

Huss said:
I am always entertained by those not fascinated by a subject but yet cannot look away and provide running commentary to it, this embroiling themselves in something they apparently have no interest in.

If those people knew how narrow minded they were they’d probably... not understand. Because narrow mind, you know?

Nitroplait · Oct 31, 2021

There is no guarantee the price behaves as your first post indicates. There has to be a sufficient number of people with enough disposable income that has an emotional relationship with the Leica brand to maintain those prices.
My generation grew up on Tintin comics and will pay significant amounts for the original first editions, but I don't see kids today all into Tintin, and they will likely not value these first editions very highly when they have disposable income at some time in the future.
The value of antiques displays similar price curves based on general changes in peoples preferences. What was highly priced 20 years ago may not be tomorrow.

On another note: If you want an original black paint Leica, it is not that expensive. I just bought a black paint Leica II model D with beautiful nickel "furniture" and a nickel Elmar for a mere 550 USD and at that price I will not be terrified using it.

George Mann · Oct 31, 2021

Everything about this hobby is being driven to insane price levels!

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

Nitroplait said:
There is no guarantee the price behaves as your first post indicates. There has to be a sufficient number of people with enough disposable income that has an emotional relationship with the Leica brand to maintain those prices.
My generation grew up on Tintin comics and will pay significant amounts for the original first editions, but I don't see kids today all into Tintin, and they will likely not value these first editions very highly when they have disposable income at some time in the future.
The value of antiques displays similar price curves based on general changes in peoples preferences. What was highly priced 20 years ago may not be tomorrow.

On another note: If you want an original black paint Leica, it is not that expensive. I just bought a black paint Leica II model D with beautiful nickel "furniture" and a nickel Elmar for a mere 550 USD and at that price I will not be terrified using it.

There is no gurantee of anything.
This is for the MP-3-2-4 variants. Not the barnacks. Although there is no guarantee, there is sufficient guarantee counterbalanced by the fact that there is a finite, very limited number of them. I am quite certain the the rare Tintins will always be in demand (always being limited to the next 200 years).

There are, at least, tens of thousands of rich people on the planet per one Black Paint Leica/rare Tintin.

faberryman · Oct 31, 2021

George Mann said:
Everything about this hobby is being driven to insane price levels!

Probably not everything.

faberryman · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
There are, at least, tens of thousands of rich people on the planet per one Black Paint Leica/rare Tintin.

A couple of years ago, a 1923 Leica went for $2,970,000. I don't know whether it worked or not. I am a little disappointed that Elon Musk didn't buy it and send it up in orbit with that guy in a car. Can you imagine circling the sun forever in a red sports car taking pictures with an old Leica. Awesome.

Nitroplait · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
There is no gurantee of anything.
This is for the MP-3-2-4 variants. Not the barnacks. Although there is no guarantee, there is sufficient guarantee counterbalanced by the fact that there is a finite, very limited number of them. I am quite certain the the rare Tintins will always be in demand (always being limited to the next 200 years).

There are, at least, tens of thousands of rich people on the planet per one Black Paint Leica/rare Tintin.

The good thing is that you can put your money where your mouth is, and come back and laugh at me in 30 years.

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

Nitroplait said:
The good thing is that you can put your money where your mouth is, and come back and laugh at me in 30 years.

No need for 30 years, 5 are enough. 5 years ago a M2 BP coud be hustled for 3-4k and a M4 BP FOR 2-3K, same as a MP Modern...

logan2z · Oct 31, 2021

I happen to like BP Leicas but don't want a (new) MP because I don't want a metered M film camera, and I can't justify spending big bucks on an M2/3/4 with original black paint finish. There are other options, however. Places like Kanto Camera in Japan and Cameraworks in the UK will strip off the chrome finish from a Leica and refinish the camera in black paint. By all accounts and by the photos I've seen, the work is impeccable. Not inexpensive, but not as bad as paying for an original BP camera. Even Leica will perform the transformation via its 'Redesign' service, although I have no idea what they charge for it.

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/M-System-Service/Redesign

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

faberryman said:
A couple of years ago, a 1923 Leica went for $2,970,000. I don't know whether it worked or not. I am a little disappointed that Elon Musk didn't buy it and send it up in orbit with that guy in a car. Can you imagine circling the sun forever in a red sports car taking pictures with
an old Leica. Awesome.

You will maybe find it hard to believe but the Leica game is not for the very rich... 10-20K is not what any Middle-class person would call “insane”. And the Very rich don’t lose their time with Leicas. What for, there’s a Helicopter on the roof of their Yacht waiting for them. Leicas are for the passionate.

Patrick Robert James · Oct 31, 2021

T'aint rocket physics to refinish a Leica. I've been planning on doing it forever just never get around to it. I prefer the black paint over either chrome.

Original BP Leicas will always be worth money.

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

Repaint is total blasphemy.

What it does in the Leica world is twofold:

- It raises the value of the original Black Paints, underlining their supreme status.

- Raises the price of original Chrome Leicas because of a diminishing pool.

However, it does a few good things as well. Like stimulating the economy (pay to buy, pay to paint ), stimulates the general Leica market, creates a buzz, expands the niche... which ultimately it creates an inflated market for the originei BP and for the new products.

logan2z said:
I happen to like BP Leicas but don't want a (new) MP because I don't want a metered M film camera, and I can't justify spending big bucks on an M2/3/4 with original black paint finish. There are other options, however. Places like Kanto Camera in Japan and Cameraworks in the UK will strip off the chrome finish from a Leica and refinish the camera in black paint. By all accounts and by the photos I've seen, the work is impeccable. Not inexpensive, but not as bad as paying for an original BP camera. Even Leica will perform the transformation via its 'Redesign' service, although I have no idea what they charge for it.

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/M-System-Service/Redesign

logan2z · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
Repaint is total blasphemy.

What it does in the Leica world is twofold:

- It raises the value of the original Black Paints, underlining their supreme status.

- Raises the price of original Chrome Leicas because of a diminishing pool.

However, it does a few good things as well. Like stimulating the economy (pay to buy, pay to paint ), stimulates the general Leica market, creates a buzz, expands the niche... which ultimately it creates an inflated market for the originei BP and for the new products.

I'm actually not sure if Leica strips the chrome and repaints or if they simply discard the top/bottom plates and replace them with new BP bits (properly engraved). If that's what they do, then the camera is essentially a factory BP camera, although not 'original'. I wouldn't personally do it but it is an alternative if you simply must have BP without the super high price tag.

faberryman · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
You will maybe find it hard to believe but the Leica game is not for the very rich... 10-20K is not what any Middle-class person would call “insane”. And the Very rich don’t lose their time with Leicas. What for, there’s a Helicopter on the roof of their Yacht waiting for them. Leicas are for the passionate.

I would not be one to quibble with anyone's determination of what is or is not an "insane" price. I might ask them what they think is an insane price out of curiosity to get a feel for where they are coming from. The answer would probably depend on one's income and net worth. As for passion, I suspect black paint Leicas are for people who are passionate about Leicas. Someone else might be passionate about motorcycles and take pictures with his phone. Besides, I think I prefer the way chrome Leicas look. But I understand that the black paint ones are de rigueur. Certainly from an investment standpoint. The thing about buying a black paint Leica as an investment is that you have to sell it to realize your profit. Who in his right mind is going to want to sell his black paint Leica once he gets his hands on one? So I guess your children are going to sell it after you die and they will realize the profit. So buying a black paint Leica is really an investment for your children and you can use it the meantime. Sounds reasonable.

You know that you really don't owe anyone around here an explanation for why you bought a black paint Leica. You don't even have to tell anyone around here you have one. Unless, of course, you want to.

Huss · Oct 31, 2021

NB23 said:
No need for 30 years, 5 are enough. 5 years ago a M2 BP coud be hustled for 3-4k and a M4 BP FOR 2-3K, same as a MP Modern...

I bought a black paint Leica MP .58 last year for $3500. It is now worth $7000-$8000. And that is with brassing etc.

wjlapier · Oct 31, 2021

Hm…what about an ala carte BP M7 with MP style levers. That camera has to be a rare one and increasing in value

Kanto quoted me ~$1700 USD to CLA and paint a M2 I paid $600 for. 10 month waiting list.

logan2z · Oct 31, 2021

wjlapier said:
Kanto quoted me ~$1700 USD to CLA and paint a M2 I paid $600 for. 10 month waiting list.

I'd be curious to know what the Leica factory would charge. Unfortunately, I don't think they'll give you an estimate until they have the camera in hand.

Huss · Oct 31, 2021

wjlapier said:
Hm…what about an ala carte BP M7 with MP style levers. That camera has to be a rare one and increasing in value

Kanto quoted me ~$1700 USD to CLA and paint a M2 I paid $600 for. 10 month waiting list.

Does it have the MP rewind knob? I remember back when you could a la carte, one option was the MP rewind knob instead of the regular slanted one.

NB23 · Oct 31, 2021

wjlapier said:
Hm…what about an ala carte BP M7 with MP style levers. That camera has to be a rare one and increasing in value

Kanto quoted me ~$1700 USD to CLA and paint a M2 I paid $600 for. 10 month waiting list.

A beautiful M7 indeed

Patrick Robert James · Oct 31, 2021

I kick myself sometimes for not buying an a la carte Leica back when they were like $2500 or so. Or maybe they were $3200. Can't remember. Cheap. Of course back then they were more expensive than ever. Perspective. lol.

Black Paint Leicas

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