Bizarre cracked texture on Delta 100 4x5 - solved

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

No, I'm not talking reticulation - it's on the base side, not the emulsion side.

I'd seen it before when testing last summer, thought I had some bad sheets. It reared its head again this month.

Weird, random "cracks" on the non-emulsion side; they're wavy and random, not a problem with the holders (which would make straight scratches). I checked an undeveloped sheet, looks fine. they don't appear until the film has dried. I put a fresh sheet in and out of a holder in the dark to make sure. No damage. My film was processed in DD-X, 1+9, 7 minutes. 1 min. pre-soak, weak acid stop, 2 bath fixing, HCA, 15 minute wash until the dye tints are gone.At no time did any step get within 3-4°c from my baseline temp.

So after some web searches, I found several similar examples with Ilford films. Everyone piped in "reticulation!" "Temp control!" "Bad holders!" Nope. Found one random guy who said it went away when he stopped pre-washing.

Ilford says don't pre-wash because there are wetting agents in the film; I've always done a 1-minute to 5 minute pre wash, never seen this on delta 100 120. I just started rotary processing, read many recommendations to pre-wash for even development. Was doing a 1-minute wash in the tank. Stopped that, and bingo - no cracks.

But how weird - something on the base side of the film reacts to a short pre-wash and somehow interacts with processing, and when the film dries, it becomes a field of cracks. Whatever it is doesn't seem removable. Tried 99% isopropyl, but no need to keep experimenting with removing it.

Ilford says a 5 minute pre wash is necessary if you want a prewash for rotary processing - guess I should go back to reading instructions! anyway, hope this helps someone else. Pretty crazy.

AgX · Feb 10, 2020

I do not see that solution to the enigma yet.

Do theses cracks only appear at one edge of a short side?
Are they all orientated the same way?

koraks · Feb 10, 2020

Scratches resulting from abrasive movement of the film across the flap of the film holder that retains the dark slide along the short edge.

mpirie · Feb 10, 2020

That's the issue i had too.

I used to pre-wash for 5 minutes on my Jobo CPA2 before processing in Pyrocat HD and got these marks on my FP4 sheet film.

I stopped pre-washing and now have beautifully clean negatives.

Mike

AgX · Feb 10, 2020

mpirie said:
That's the issue i had too.

What issue? The OP already is not clear on his issue. Please describe your issue.

Ian C · Feb 10, 2020

The developer, stop, fix, and washes are all water or solutions that are mostly water. An additional water soak before the developing step, or even an unusually long final wash shouldn’t make a difference to the film base.

Ilford sheet films are coated onto a polyester acetate base. This is a tough, durable material and very unlikely to develop cracks due to an additional few minutes in water. I’ve never seen a defect such as that in any polyester acetate sheet-film base, regardless of brand.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/3/product/681/

Correlation is sometimes mistaken for causation. Most likely these marks are not caused by the water soak. If the initial water soak causes the problem, then it should do so with every sheet in the box, not only to random sheets.

Since the film was loaded, exposed, and processed in total darkness, you have no way to know whether or not the lines or cracks were present before the film was removed from its original packaging. Thus, an undetected manufacturing or packaging equipment error can’t be ruled out.

I have used many Ilford Delta 100 sheet films in 4” x 5” and 8” x 10”. The results were excellent I always soak the film in tempered water for 1/2 to 2 minutes before the developing step (in open trays). I have not encountered the problem shown. I don’t know what is causing the problem, but I doubt that it is related to the initial water soak.

mpirie · Feb 10, 2020

AgX said:
What issue? The OP already is not clear on his issue. Please describe your issue.

The issue i had was the appearance of cracks/scratches in the base-side of my FP4+ sheets.

I saw the same issue in tanks and trays. I read Ilford's advice on developing their film which included the recommendation not to pre-soak.

I stopped pre-soaking and the markings disappeared.

Mike

AgX · Feb 10, 2020

Inportant to me is that you refer to both cracks or scratches, in contrast to the OP. As Ian above indicated, cracks are unlikely. The more important it would have been to have a proof of the maks being cracks.

As you you did not specify further, I assume at your samples the marks being randomly spread.

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

Ian C said:
Correlation is sometimes mistaken for causation. Most likely these marks are not caused by the water soak. If the initial water soak causes the problem, then it should do so with every sheet in the box, not only to random sheets.

Since the film was loaded, exposed, and processed in total darkness, you have no way to know whether or not the lines or cracks were present before the film was removed from its original packaging. Thus, an undetected manufacturing or packaging equipment error can’t be ruled out.

Re-read my post. The film is fine when removed from the box - I checked. I loaded it in and out of holders several times. No issues. It happened with every. Single. Sheet that got a 1-minute pre-soak. It went away when I removed the pre-soak. It happened with 2 different boxes.

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

AgX said:
What issue? The OP already is not clear on his issue. Please describe your issue.

Perhaps reading my original post would help?
Getting a crack-like texture on the base side of the film, (every sheet, from 2 different boxes, purchased months apart). I solved it by eliminating the short pre-soak. The word "solved" in the post title could be a hint to that. I've seen many posts about this issue, and as I noted, everyone said " reticulation" (it's on the base side, not the emulsion) or "scratches from the holders" (they're random and wavy, not straight like a holder issue would produce).
Researching this, I found many posts about the issue across the last few years, one with photos that matched my issue. Found one post where eliminating the pre-soak solved it. it solved it for me as well.
It's 100% repeatable in my darkroom - pre soak for one minute and develop, either agitation or rotary, either all-temps at 20° or all-temps at 24°. I just did a sheet with the pre-soak to be sure, exact same issue happens. Issue is eliminated when the pre soak is eliminated.

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

koraks said:
Scratches resulting from abrasive movement of the film across the flap of the film holder that retains the dark slide along the short edge.

Perhaps actually read my post. They're not scratches from the holder. They're not in straight lines, but wavy with some going in one direction and curving in the other, the amount of play necessary to do that would be impossible with the limited side-to-side clearance in a holder.

They stopped when I stoppd doing the short pre-soak. They return when I do a 1-minute pre-soak. Haven't tested longer soaks, but it's 100% repeatable for me, across 2 batches of film.

I posted this here because I found many posts describing the exact issue, and only one with a solution. The solution worked for me, thought it might help others.

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

mpirie said:
The issue i had was the appearance of cracks/scratches in the base-side of my FP4+ sheets.

I saw the same issue in tanks and trays. I read Ilford's advice on developing their film which included the recommendation not to pre-soak.

I stopped pre-soaking and the markings disappeared.

Mike

You seem to be the only person who actually read the original post!

I find that it's 100% repeatable, too, whether in a combi-pan, a round tank with agitation, or rotary. It's the short pre-soak. I found enough mentions of it online that I thought I'd post a solution for those who search this subject in the future.

It does look for all the world like cracks or fractures in some sort of hard coating - it is most DEFINITELY not scratches.

DWThomas · Feb 10, 2020

I'm thinking some films have a sort of clear gelatin(?) or other coating on the back/base side -- perhaps to reduce curling? If so perhaps that is where the trouble originates, though with a pre-soak considerably shorter than the development time, the mechanism seems a bit mysterious. (With film having been made for more than a hundred years, one wants to believe everything has long ago been figured out, but alas here we are.)

mshchem · Feb 10, 2020

M Carter said:
Perhaps actually read my post. They're not scratches from the holder. They're not in straight lines, but wavy with some going in one direction and curving in the other, the amount of play necessary to do that would be impossible with the limited side-to-side clearance in a holder.

They stopped when I stoppd doing the short pre-soak. They return when I do a 1-minute pre-soak. Haven't tested longer soaks, but it's 100% repeatable for me, across 2 batches of film.

I posted this here because I found many posts describing the exact issue, and only one with a solution. The solution worked for me, thought it might help others.

Thanks for the info. I'm (hopefully) going to shoot and process some large format Delta 100 tomorrow. I will skip any prewet. I use Jobo drums and tubes. I hope to have a couple sheets of 11X14 , I will use XTOL. I follow a similar process as you, always use Kodak hypo clearing agent to get the dye out.
Yes there's a reason manufacturers print instructions
Thanks for the insight.

AgX · Feb 11, 2020

M Carter said:
Perhaps reading my original post would help?
Getting a crack-like texture on the base side of the film, (every sheet, from 2 different boxes, purchased months apart).

-) there is a difference between "crack" and "crack-like" (I acknowledge that such maybe difficult to differenciate)
-) as reading your OP as looking at your photo did not help, I raised questions about your issue, which still you did not answer.

John Wiegerink · Feb 11, 2020

It's nice to know that Delta doesn't like a pre-soak and that you have solved your problem. For me the mystery of why this happens still isn't solved and probably won't be. I have read the Ilford literature many times, but didn't take the part about "no" pre-soak very serious. Now I do! If Ilford/Harman would come out and explain why they don't recommend a pre-soak the mystery would be solved. I normally shoot Ilford HP5+ and just a dab of FP4+ in 4x5 and 120, but I do have a fresh box of Delta 100 in the fridge that I will be using in a month or two. Duh, with no pre-soak now! As to why a presoak causes this problem?? I guess it's like life itself...……...a mystery.

AgX · Feb 11, 2020

John Wiegerink said:
I have read the Ilford literature many times, but didn't take the part about "no" pre-soak very serious. Now I do! If Ilford/Harman would come out and explain why they don't recommend a pre-soak the mystery would be solved.

They likely have a complete different reason for this advise.

As I repeartedly hinted at, at my own photechnical library I have got only one hint at a presoak at all. It is from Ilford from 1958 where they say that in general such is not recommended.

mpirie · Feb 11, 2020

This sheet is available on the Ilford website.

The last sentence of the "Agitation" section reads: "A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing."

In my case, it clearly leads to base-side markings.

Please remember, these are MY findings and a solution that works for ME.....i make no claim that this approach will resolve anyone else's issues.

Mike

Tom Kershaw · Feb 11, 2020

It would be helpful if Harman / ILFORD Photo could come on here and give a fuller explanation about pre-soaking and uneven development. I don't pre-soak B&W film but do C-41.

John Wiegerink · Feb 11, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
It would be helpful if Harman / ILFORD Photo could come on here and give a fuller explanation about pre-soaking and uneven development. I don't pre-soak B&W film but do C-41.

I'm with you Tom. For B&W it's almost all Ilford for me and I'd like to know what makes my film and processing work. Also what doesn't? I do pre-soak for my Pyro and Pyrocat negatives, but not for my Xtol-R ones.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 11, 2020

John Wiegerink said:
I'm with you Tom. For B&W it's almost all Ilford for me and I'd like to know what makes my film and processing work. Also what doesn't? I do pre-soak for my Pyro and Pyrocat negatives, but not for my Xtol-R ones.

I use a Jobo for most of my film processing and haven't had an issue with the 'Expert' drums. However, in the past Jobo have issued a warning against using a pre-soak with XTOL.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 11, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
It would be helpful if Harman / ILFORD Photo could come on here and give a fuller explanation about pre-soaking and uneven development. I don't pre-soak B&W film but do C-41.

And, it would be nice if Ilford addressed the base-side cracking issue that appears related to a (short) pre-soak as well. Since I develop batches of sheet film in trays, a pre-soak is a necessity. I'm not using Ilford film at the moment, but if base-side emulsion cracking is going to happen with any pre-soaking, that would be a deal-breaker for me.

M Carter, Have you brought this issue to Ilford's attention? I really think they should weigh in on this.

Best,

Doremus

Vaughn · Feb 11, 2020

With FP4+ several years ago I had very bad base side markings using pre-rinse in Jobo Expert Drum 3005 and 8x10. A permanent deposit of some sort it that tended towards the center and ran lengthway. Switching to a non-hardening fix (and keeping the pre-rinse) solved the problem. I figured that in the drum, the anti-halation layer on the back was not getting fully removed and was getting hardened somehow by the fixer's hardener. I have no idea if that is the reason, but the cure still worked. YMMD

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 11, 2020

Probably why Ilford doesn't recommend a pre-soak... Glad you solved your problem!

Luckless · Feb 11, 2020

If this kind of thing was down to general wet-time due to adding a pre-soak, then wouldn't this be a common complaint among those who do stand-development?

I've read a decent amount on the topic out of curiosity with the idea of possibly running a night-photography project comparing stand to standard development, but I've not once come across a stand development advocate who noted that as an issue. But maybe I just need to go read in more detail?

Bizarre cracked texture on Delta 100 4x5 - solved

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