Bio ethanol for Handmade Silver Gelatin Emulsion ?

mug

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
67
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
Hi Hello
I just bought/ reading the book 'The Handmade Silver Gelatin Emulsion Print' from Denise Ross. I like the book ! Looking at my kitchen cupboard & workbench if I have the right kitchenstuff & chemical for the first experiments.
One chemical Denise mention is the use of pure alcohol (ethanol). She advises the use of 'everclear' . Because I live in EU, we don't have that brand. But similar product with >95% drinking alcohol cost here €40,-. because of taxes. To expensive I think.
I can also buy at local shop 'Bio-ethanol' >95% . That only cost €1,85.
That is not for consumption. The label does not say what the attachments are. But know from other companies that it is almost always the ferrous methanol or sometimes MEK (=Butanone)
Can I use that cheaper alcohol to make emulsions ? Or dit I get unpredictable results?
Yes I can try. But that cost a lot of time, and maybe frustration. So I hope anyone already know the answer.

I just have a supplement Google search. And found that most used addition is in Europe for tax free ethanol is 'Eurodenaturant'. That is an mixture contains
1 % Isopropylalcohol (IPA)
1 % Methylethylketon (MEK)
1 % Denatoniumbenzoaat (Bitrex)
 
Last edited:

Nodda Duma

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
2,685
Location
Batesville, Arkansas
Format
Multi Format
This has come up before.

The alcohol acts as a surfactant to aid in reducing air bubbles in the emulsion Alternatives are to use Vodka (essentially ethanol diluted by water), 99% Isopropyl alcohol, a small amount of Photo-Flo, or nothing.

see this thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/alcohol.130065/

someone did report they use the alcohol you refer to without issue for prep for wet plate, but that obviously isn’t silver gelatin emulsion
 
Last edited:

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,271
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
Isopropyl alcohol had quadrupled in price here in the UK due to the Covid-19 virus when I last bought some, it's 5 or 6 times the price at the moment. This is because it's used as hand sanitiser.
Ian
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
There are special taxes on Ethanol. So compare the price of pure Ethanol (for instance from a pharmacy) with the offer you otherwise get stating that it contains Ehtanol at same percentage. If the offer is substantially cheaper, it is tax reduced by adding a repellant chemical that makes it useless as beverage. Such repellant may be of various kind, for instance other in Europe than in the USA. And this repellant may hamper the intended use you have in mind, thus testing is advised.
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Bioalcohol is a tricky term. Basically it is just a political term designating Ethanol that has argraric roots. It has no chemical significance.
However I found one source stating that bioalcohol never contains repellants. I do not share this view.
 
  • AgX
  • Deleted

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,271
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
AgX said:
Bioalcohol is a tricky term. Basically it is just a political term designating Ethanol that has argraric roots. It has no chemical significance.
However I found one source stating that bioalcohol never contains repellants. I do not share this view.
Click to expand...


There's various terms, De-natured alcohol, Rubbing alcohol, Bio-alcohol, etc, what they all have in common is additives to make them undrinkable.

I used to use a lot of Methylated Spirits but there's strong Purple dye added here in the UK, sat on a shelf or in a window with sunlight it fades sometimes completely, I have left bottles in sunlight for months. I have filtered though an old Ion exchange resin (old water softener) takes a few passes but worked), a activated charcoal filter would be much better. I should add I use alcohol mostly for French polish.

When I made emulsions commercially I rarely used any alcohols but then they were for quite a specialist use.

Ian
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
No Ian, as I said Bioalcohol is a political term. But of course one may put it on such alcohol even if it is denatured. It might for instance be a marketing ploy for people not having a wood stove, but only an alcohol one... The confusion even gets bigger when on considers agraric products with the EU Bio-designation which is applied if certain growing/feeding requirements are fulfilled.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,243
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
The €1.85 bio-ethanol mug refers to is in my experience 96% denatured ethanol without a dye (ie its colorless). I get mine from the "Action" store. It works fine for wet plate collodion, but I have never made gelatin emulsions, so I can't vouch for its applicability in that use case.
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Since childhood days I hate the odor of west-german denatured Ethanol (Brennspiritus), so I prefer pure Ethanol. However in my workshop I use Isopropanol. And I think for many applications one can use it instead of Ethanol.
 

J 3

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
147
Format
Medium Format
John Coffer (who would know) says that denatured ethanol will work just fine. You can even use pure alcohol with no ether - the critical thing is to keep the water percentage very low on low ether mixes.

The following contains a formula for wet plate collodion that contains no ether or cadmium salts and uses denatured ethanol - https://www.johncoffer.com/Myth_Busters_files/MythBusters05-20100121.pdf

It's the safest and easiest to obtain recipe I've seen. The coatings are bound to be a bit weak and prone to breaking off with out the Cd, but it's a workable formula by all accounts.
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
As indicated in this thread the chemicals emploid as deterrent in Ethanol differ internationally.
 

J 3

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
147
Format
Medium Format
koraks said:
Yes, for collodion. AFAIK Coffer never said anything about gelatin emulsions.
Click to expand...
You are quite right. My mistake. I was reading the thread and lost track of what kind of emulsions we were talking about. And which alcohol might make a difference with silver gelatin emulsions because of the tendency of some alcohols to harden gelatin. Thanks for catching the mistake
 

Peter Schrager

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
4,172
Location
fairfield co
Format
Large Format
I only make pop emulsion but I only use 5ml if alcohol...it that stuff works for wet plate it should not be a problem
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…