Bio ethanol for Handmade Silver Gelatin Emulsion ?

[mug]

Hi Hello
I just bought/ reading the book 'The Handmade Silver Gelatin Emulsion Print' from Denise Ross. I like the book ! Looking at my kitchen cupboard & workbench if I have the right kitchenstuff & chemical for the first experiments.
One chemical Denise mention is the use of pure alcohol (ethanol). She advises the use of 'everclear' . Because I live in EU, we don't have that brand. But similar product with >95% drinking alcohol cost here €40,-. because of taxes. To expensive I think.
I can also buy at local shop 'Bio-ethanol' >95% . That only cost €1,85.
That is not for consumption. The label does not say what the attachments are. But know from other companies that it is almost always the ferrous methanol or sometimes MEK (=Butanone)
Can I use that cheaper alcohol to make emulsions ? Or dit I get unpredictable results?
Yes I can try. But that cost a lot of time, and maybe frustration. So I hope anyone already know the answer.

I just have a supplement Google search. And found that most used addition is in Europe for tax free ethanol is 'Eurodenaturant'. That is an mixture contains
1 % Isopropylalcohol (IPA)
1 % Methylethylketon (MEK)
1 % Denatoniumbenzoaat (Bitrex)

 

[Nodda Duma]

This has come up before.

The alcohol acts as a surfactant to aid in reducing air bubbles in the emulsion Alternatives are to use Vodka (essentially ethanol diluted by water), 99% Isopropyl alcohol, a small amount of Photo-Flo, or nothing.

see this thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/alcohol.130065/

someone did report they use the alcohol you refer to without issue for prep for wet plate, but that obviously isn’t silver gelatin emulsion

 

[Ian Grant]

Isopropyl alcohol had quadrupled in price here in the UK due to the Covid-19 virus when I last bought some, it's 5 or 6 times the price at the moment. This is because it's used as hand sanitiser.
Ian

 

[AgX]

There are special taxes on Ethanol. So compare the price of pure Ethanol (for instance from a pharmacy) with the offer you otherwise get stating that it contains Ehtanol at same percentage. If the offer is substantially cheaper, it is tax reduced by adding a repellant chemical that makes it useless as beverage. Such repellant may be of various kind, for instance other in Europe than in the USA. And this repellant may hamper the intended use you have in mind, thus testing is advised.

 

[AgX]

Bioalcohol is a tricky term. Basically it is just a political term designating Ethanol that has argraric roots. It has no chemical significance.
However I found one source stating that bioalcohol never contains repellants. I do not share this view.

 

[mug]

Thanks !
The thread from Nov 24, 2015 is exactly the discussion I needed. So lots of possibilities given there.

 

[AgX]

This link works:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/alcohol.130065/

 

[Ian Grant]

Bioalcohol is a tricky term. Basically it is just a political term designating Ethanol that has argraric roots. It has no chemical significance.
However I found one source stating that bioalcohol never contains repellants. I do not share this view.

There's various terms, De-natured alcohol, Rubbing alcohol, Bio-alcohol, etc, what they all have in common is additives to make them undrinkable.

I used to use a lot of Methylated Spirits but there's strong Purple dye added here in the UK, sat on a shelf or in a window with sunlight it fades sometimes completely, I have left bottles in sunlight for months. I have filtered though an old Ion exchange resin (old water softener) takes a few passes but worked), a activated charcoal filter would be much better. I should add I use alcohol mostly for French polish.

When I made emulsions commercially I rarely used any alcohols but then they were for quite a specialist use.

Ian

 

[AgX]

No Ian, as I said Bioalcohol is a political term. But of course one may put it on such alcohol even if it is denatured. It might for instance be a marketing ploy for people not having a wood stove, but only an alcohol one... The confusion even gets bigger when on considers agraric products with the EU Bio-designation which is applied if certain growing/feeding requirements are fulfilled.

 

[koraks]

The €1.85 bio-ethanol mug refers to is in my experience 96% denatured ethanol without a dye (ie its colorless). I get mine from the "Action" store. It works fine for wet plate collodion, but I have never made gelatin emulsions, so I can't vouch for its applicability in that use case.

 

[AgX]

Since childhood days I hate the odor of west-german denatured Ethanol (Brennspiritus), so I prefer pure Ethanol. However in my workshop I use Isopropanol. And I think for many applications one can use it instead of Ethanol.

 

[J 3]

John Coffer (who would know) says that denatured ethanol will work just fine. You can even use pure alcohol with no ether - the critical thing is to keep the water percentage very low on low ether mixes.

The following contains a formula for wet plate collodion that contains no ether or cadmium salts and uses denatured ethanol - https://www.johncoffer.com/Myth_Busters_files/MythBusters05-20100121.pdf

It's the safest and easiest to obtain recipe I've seen. The coatings are bound to be a bit weak and prone to breaking off with out the Cd, but it's a workable formula by all accounts.

 

[AgX]

As indicated in this thread the chemicals emploid as deterrent in Ethanol differ internationally.

 

[koraks]

John Coffer (who would know) says that denatured ethanol will work just fine.

Yes, for collodion. AFAIK Coffer never said anything about gelatin emulsions.

 

[J 3]

Yes, for collodion. AFAIK Coffer never said anything about gelatin emulsions.

You are quite right. My mistake. I was reading the thread and lost track of what kind of emulsions we were talking about. And which alcohol might make a difference with silver gelatin emulsions because of the tendency of some alcohols to harden gelatin. Thanks for catching the mistake

 

[Peter Schrager]

I only make pop emulsion but I only use 5ml if alcohol...it that stuff works for wet plate it should not be a problem