Bill Gates' 5.2% Investment in Kodak

Ok, enough rubbish out of me. In all seriousness, I felt compelled to turn my computer back on in order to explain what that post was about.

Someone had to step in and diffuse the situation. I tried to do so via self-deprecating humor using the dektol fume rant.

Before the mods go after me and tell I'm wrong or have stepped out of line by self-moderating, or wasted bandwith...(like at another photography site that will remain nameless) The reason I felt it necessary to change the subject is simple: I am for a world without sexism. I spent a week in a workshop by one of the foremost sexism researchers last summer. That and a color photography course.

With all due respect, I understand that no one intended it. We men are socialized to be sexist, and we don't even always realize we're doing it (not that that is an excuse)...or realize that it hurts us as much as it hurts women (yes, it absolutely does!)...this can make for interesting interactions between men and women! It keeps life interesting!

But let's in the future all try to also be sensitive to those present here other than ourselves. There are people of all sexes, ages, and backgrounds...ok? Including pirates!

Thanks!

Best regards to everyone! Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing...it's all part of life!

Good night. (now i can get me shut-eye...arrrrr! )

You know what, Laura? I'm not even going to go there with you, arguing that fields like photography, recording engineering, filmmaking, are 50-50 male female. I just have one final comment. . .

Sexism is treating someone differently based on their gender (don't want to say his or her/her or his, because you'll probably come after me for that too). So being assumed to be "one of the boys" should be the highest form of flattery for someone like you :blinks:

Also, don't presume that sexism is something that only women experience. . .

After this very thoughtful exchange of over-sensitivities and repressed anger, I have decided to change my usual gender diplomatic wording of (s)he and his/her to "it". It is the neutral gender in english and I think it should have been fully adopted when the PC bullshit begun. After all, usually in english, the male gender is used in a neutral way, not unlike spanish for example. If you don't like it, do something to change your language.
If you have a gender-unspecific nickname, a non human avatar and you state your name and gender nowhere, anyone addressing you, can assume anything they like about your gender, your height, your nationality, the number of your toes and what kind of breakfast you like in the morning. If you don't give out any personal information, don't get angry when people make assumptions in the dark.
I have every right to assume anything my imagination conjures, including you being a British 13 year old schoolgirl who loves social sites, a Thai ladyboy who wants to be in the back of a camera for a change, a little green creature from Venus who came to Earth to play with the humans, a genderless secret organization agent with a mission to spread chaos amongst us or a simple pseudo-AI script bot by a British 13 year old schoolgirl who got tired of social sites and is dubbing with hacking.

arigram said:

a little green creature from Venus who came to Earth to play with the humans

Click to expand...

I suspect there's a few of them here.

No, FilmIs4Ever. Sexism is the social and/or institutional treatment of an individual distinguished by judgemental valuations placed upon their sex. How one presents themselves within that sex is another matter.

At my university's camera club, the ratio of women to men I see down there is roughly 60-40ish. Most of the club's executive are female. No, I'm not at a women's college (which is an American thing, not so much a Canadian one).

But I will contend that there is residual and institutional sexism in the fields you note below, FilmIs4Ever. I'm surprised you didn't stop there by adding "physicist, engineer, computer scientist, medicine, law, etc." (all which until relatively recently were incidentally the exclusive domain of men, though enrolment at our uni for some of these now show more women than men in those programmes). To illustrate an example, I wanted to be a club DJ back when I was 17, but all the DJs where I lived were guys. It took eight more years for me to try to make an "in" to the world of turntable spinning without having to do something with my body that I'd later regret. Nowadays, I know several other women DJs, but they, like me, had to really do everything they could to win over sceptics (who were invariably men). So if this experience is not illustrative of sexism, then I clearly have no clue what I'm talking about. The photography angle is just another flavour of this: I wanted to shoot when I was a teenager, but my dad, whose Minolta SLR and lenses sat in a closet for years and gathered dust, refused to ever let me touch it (or his guitar, which he later just handed my brother to learn how to play). He wouldn't sell it to me when I offered as a young adult to buy it. So it wasn't until I was in my early 20s before I could get my own SLR camera, and I did it without his blessing or approval. I'm glad I listened to myself and not him.

The point, FilmIs4Ever, is not to assume whether a field is 50-50 parity or not or whether any party is exempt from sexism. The point is to assume nothing, ever.

That said, let the aside on this topic be taken to private messaging if you'd like to continue discussing or debating over its finer points. Meanwhile, let this thread move on without further diversion, okay? Cheers.

FilmIs4Ever said:

You know what, Laura? I'm not even going to go there with you, arguing that fields like photography, recording engineering, filmmaking, are 50-50 male female. I just have one final comment. . .

Sexism is treating someone differently based on their gender (don't want to say his or her/her or his, because you'll probably come after me for that too). So being assumed to be "one of the boys" should be the highest form of flattery for someone like you :blinks:

Also, don't presume that sexism is something that only women experience. . .

Click to expand...

arigram said:

After this very thoughtful exchange of over-sensitivities and repressed anger, I have decided to change my usual gender diplomatic wording of (s)he and his/her to "it". It is the neutral gender in english and I think it should have been fully adopted when the PC bullshit begun. After all, usually in english, the male gender is used in a neutral way, not unlike spanish for example. If you don't like it, do something to change your language.
If you have a gender-unspecific nickname, a non human avatar and you state your name and gender nowhere, anyone addressing you, can assume anything they like about your gender, your height, your nationality, the number of your toes and what kind of breakfast you like in the morning. If you don't give out any personal information, don't get angry when people make assumptions in the dark.
I have every right to assume anything my imagination conjures, including you being a British 13 year old schoolgirl who loves social sites, a Thai ladyboy who wants to be in the back of a camera for a change, a little green creature from Venus who came to Earth to play with the humans, a genderless secret organization agent with a mission to spread chaos amongst us or a simple pseudo-AI script bot by a British 13 year old schoolgirl who got tired of social sites and is dubbing with hacking.

Click to expand...

Using "it" in place of "his" or "her" is apparently incorrect grammar, as is "him or her." To be honest, I just say him, and by "him" I mean "human being." Sometimes I use "her." It depends on my mood, I guess.

FilmIs4Ever said:

You know what, Laura? I'm not even going to go there with you, arguing that fields like photography, recording engineering, filmmaking, are 50-50 male female. I just have one final comment. . .

Sexism is treating someone differently based on their gender (don't want to say his or her/her or his, because you'll probably come after me for that too). So being assumed to be "one of the boys" should be the highest form of flattery for someone like you :blinks:

Also, don't presume that sexism is something that only women experience. . .

Click to expand...

With all due respect, I never said that any field is 50-50 male-female. I simply asked where you got your "statistic" that 90 percent of photographers are male. It sounds like poppycock.

In case you are wondering, I am not accusing you or anyone of being sexist, either. I said that women have experienced sexism in photography. That's just a fact. It's nothing done by anyone here. I'm old enough to remember getting open sneers in certain photography shops. I hope you don't know what that feels like.

Nor do I think that being assumed to be "one of the boys" is flattery. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a woman. But then again I am not sure what you are talking about. You might be confusing me with someone else. I always sign my name to my posts, and it's clearly female. I always assume that's why I never get answers.

By the way, I assume you were insulting me when you said "for someone like you." I will just point out that you don't know anything about me. I guess I don't really like gratuitous insults, but I won't return them.

Again, I never said you or anyone else here were being sexist. I was saying, don't brush off someone else's sensitivity to that issue. Don't (appear to) tell women that they shouldn't care about gender issues or sexism. If you had ever experienced it yourself, you would know that it is very unpleasant.

As for your point, "don't presume sexism is something only women experience," huh? I don't understand how that pertains to my comments at all. Are you arguing for something like reverse sexism? I don't know if that exists, but I certainly would be against it. But the only person I can remember who made anything that could be considered a sexist remark about men was (inadvertently) you. In categorizing some professions, like teaching, as female. My kids have had some great male teachers. So did I, come to think of it.

Now, let's be friends.

-Laura

MattKing said:

Laura (and accozzaglia):

I think there is a real difference between bias, and casual assumption.

Click to expand...

Hi Matt. Yes, of course. Well said. I think everyone agrees to that. And I never called anyone biased. I simply was trying to say -- to someone else, not you -- don't dismiss someone else's sensitivity to these things if you haven't experienced it yourself. Things always look different based on where you sit.

I was a lawyer too. Nice to meet another one. And, like you, after being in that arena, I can't get too worked up by posts in forums. I always assume the best about people, and it's usually worked out. Even in real estate and corporate law.

-Laura